WunderPod
On the WunderPod, Mer and Wolf have intimate and broad-reaching conversations with a wide range of creative guests about the wonders of existence: unscripted, unrestrained, and uncut.
Contact: wow@wunder.media
WunderPod
Ep 5 - Panorama of a sober king
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Mer and Wolf are joined by Chad (and a very considerate ghost) to discuss sobriety, male friendships, side shaft, unraveling, dangerous noodles, breathwork, and more.
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And uh we are recording by kerosene lamp.
SPEAKER_01So we are not like other podcasts.
SPEAKER_08We are, yeah, I know. I have it's storming. It's storming.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_08I know. A little bit of lightning, a little bit of thunder, a little bit of rain. I'm enjoying it. I'm feeling at home.
SPEAKER_01Good? Are you?
SPEAKER_08Yeah.
SPEAKER_01God, this is great. I'm so glad.
SPEAKER_03Is that the stormy nature of your life?
SPEAKER_07Or or I think I don't know.
SPEAKER_06I was just, well, when we were out backpacking this last weekend, it stormed so, so hard our first night in the tent. And something about it, I just love falling asleep to the sound of rain on the on the rain fly. And I was in the middle sandwich between two.
SPEAKER_01I was wondering if you were in the middle of the hot dog.
SPEAKER_06I was hot dog and uh it was just so fun. We had this flash of lightning and then immediate thunder like right on top of us. And we all just shot up and we're like, hee hee! Near death giggle.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we're having fun, right? Was it was it the kind of thunder that's like right there and it feels like it's in your chest?
SPEAKER_06Mm-hmm. It it shook your like heart. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The bass was just wild. And I I grew up in Connecticut, and so I we always had thunderstorms growing up, and my mom was always like, the giants are playing. Oh they're they're bowling. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and so it just brought me back to that.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Did you did you hear that as a kid? Yep. Did you believe it? Oh yeah. That's really cool.
SPEAKER_08Who of us has been up there to verify? Yeah, that's true. They're not. I don't know. It could be. Um, should we go rolling?
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_08All right. Welcome to the Wonder Pod coming to you from Bend, Oregon.
SPEAKER_01I'm Mayor.
SPEAKER_08I'm Wolfgang.
SPEAKER_01Today we're joined by our guest Chad. Hello. He's a big multi-sport cyclist, volleyballer, rock climber, extraordinaire, sober king, and the life of the party. A life skills coach and an activity coordinator by day or night. He can also make a mean latte. Welcome, Chad.
SPEAKER_03Hi, thanks, guys. Thanks for being on. What an amazing intro.
SPEAKER_01How does it feel to be called a sober king?
SPEAKER_03Sober king. I don't I yeah, I'd like it.
SPEAKER_06I could definitely finish.
SPEAKER_01He came up with it and I really liked it a lot.
SPEAKER_06I've been using King a lot. Yeah, I vote have.
SPEAKER_01What a compliment.
SPEAKER_08Indeed.
SPEAKER_01So all right.
SPEAKER_08Um, so uh get into the Wonder Quest for this episode. Everyone lay on the cards on the table emotionally. Um let's see. So last time uh our last guest G uh assigned for us to go out to a nature spot and note something that stands out to you, some aspect of the environment or some part of the experience. Um, and then to look up uh how to say a few of those words in uh the language of one of the native tribes of the area. So, uh Mayor, how did that go for you?
SPEAKER_01Oh, I'm I'm up. Well, um I chose the word river and and I chose the kicksht language, K-I-K-S-H-T, which is also called the Wasco language. And and here's the thing. I feel anxious that I'm gonna get something wrong and that I'm gonna be wrong. Okay. That's scary. I'm new here to this to this, to this thing. Totally. Um I continue. Um it's a member of the sorry, sorry, sorry. It's spoken by the Wasco people, one of the tribes of the Confederated Tribes of Warm Springs. So the the word riv uh river is Chuck. That's old.
SPEAKER_08Chuck. Nice.
SPEAKER_01And I hope I said it right.
SPEAKER_08I think you did good. How was the experience like when you were sitting outside thinking about this? Were you was the observational experience impacted by the context of thinking about deterrent like thinking about moving this into a different language? Or or is that sort of a secondary aspect for you?
SPEAKER_01Can you ask it again?
SPEAKER_08Yep.
SPEAKER_01I'm feeling nervous.
SPEAKER_08So like I guess I'm curious, like, did the context because I mean you know, I would say you're a pretty observational sitter usually.
SPEAKER_00Oh, thank you.
SPEAKER_08Um I'm curious if the context of um this particular Wonder Quest changed how you are your observational experience.
SPEAKER_01You know, I just have a big connection with the river, and so it really should be no surprise that that's the word I picked, because I'm often in the river. I was in the river today. I'm in it all the time. Um so but I wouldn't say really no. Unfortunately. I think I was feeling curious about what the word would sound like and what would how it would feel to say it. I was focused more on that aspect than like seeing the river differently, I guess.
SPEAKER_08How does it feel to say it?
SPEAKER_01Awkward? I just I just don't want to mess up.
SPEAKER_08Indeed.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_08Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. But hey, uh getting out of my comfort zone uh build character.
SPEAKER_06What the wonder pod's all about. Yeah. I also think it's cool to even just take the leap into something that you're unfamiliar with and e like allow to mess up because it's not not native to you or my myself. That's true. Um, but at least start to like bridge the gap between different understandings, different words for the things that we all we both enjoy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. This is this has not been the Deschutes River for very long. It's been it's been a it's been other things for longer.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, I I I feel similarly to you about it where I'm like, I am Yeah, I have like some trepidation about wading in because I don't want to make a mistake about I mean in general I think and this making mistakes is scary and uncomfortable, but especially right this feels like um an area like an area where there's just like a lot of there's so much historical baggage, right? And it's like it feels scary, I think, to wade in without know it like understanding that you might mess up something that's like then messed up so much over time. Yeah. You know?
SPEAKER_01Don't want to add to it.
SPEAKER_06Right. Yeah. Something that I think about quite a bit is that sometimes I feel like that fear of of messing up or or getting something wrong, mispronouncing something, or um just not being completely like culturally competent is then it keeps me from actually a hundred percent taking that leap and allowing myself to be corrected and to learn. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_01I'm realizing now that it would have been a better move to probably go to a local museum with and just read um I would have learned some words probably by doing that.
SPEAKER_08That's an interesting maybe something to think about for the future. Like there's a bunch of exhibitions about that at the High Desert Museum. Tons, yeah. Um with a lot of good I remember I mean, it's been a couple years since I've been, but a lot of language related.
SPEAKER_01I just googled and that felt like, uh didn't you?
SPEAKER_08Yeah, uh I know, and I'm I'm trying to balance that with like if I if I like sort of obviously I can't fully switch the positions, right? But like if I think about something that's like really important to me, right, and somebody else is like making an effort to engage with it, like I don't really care that much if they get it right. It's more it feels good that they care enough to try, totally or to engage or to explore.
SPEAKER_01Hell yeah.
SPEAKER_08Um and obviously I don't know.
SPEAKER_06It's hard to extend that compassion towards ourselves. Totally. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Eternally.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, actually. Extending compassion to ourselves. Period. I mean, period. How about you? Yeah, so yeah, full transparency. I looked at it uh this morning and um with many things in my life, it's I I'm I'm a very like last-minute keep everything in my head um and go quickly through things, which is um I think uh you know a a symptom of being like ADHD and and all that, and also just like having a ton on my plate at all the time, but something that I would like to eventually neutralize. But um luckily enough for me, I did go on quite the quest right right before. Oh, you did backpacking. Yeah, indeed. Um and I spent uh four nights and three days backpacking with uh a couple of friends in the Wallawas. Um and we backpacked in and we spent the the night at Mir Lake, which is right underneath Eagle Cap, which is the tallest peak out there, and it's just this absolutely epic and sheer face with this big crack that comes down the middle. It's very aesthetic, and Mir Lake is is beautiful. And I spent a lot of time on the trip um actually being very called to water. Um and at the lake we were at, just watching all of like the ripples and the reflections and the fluidity of it. Um I was taking a lot out of it. Um TikNot Han um talks about the impermanence of water and that the river is never the same river twice.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_06And I'm watching as all this water is moving by so quickly, and um just had a moment by myself on the river, um watching it flow past going so quickly. Uh and so yeah, unfortunately I have to out myself that I didn't really have the intention going into it with this with this wonder quest, and so gee, I apologize. Um I I probably didn't put the the level of care and attention that you were you were hoping for. Um but after the fact um I went through and and did a little research and uh up by that mountain range uh in the Wallawas, um it's home to the Nez Perse tribe. And the words that were sticking out to me uh was for the moon, um and which actually uh shares the same word with the sun, which is alright, let's try this. Um Hismtux Um and then water, which is koos and wait, sun and moon are the same words. Sun and moon are the same word. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Cool.
SPEAKER_06Right? Very cool.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_06And um there was one night where the moon was just this like perfect crescent and it was setting over the lake. We were at Mir Lake, and the reflection of the moon was just unbelievable. And I just sat there and watched as the moon completely disappeared, and I just sat there getting chewed by mosquitoes the entire time, sacrificing my blood. Literal blood. Yeah, uh, just watching the moon disappear into the night, and then the stars just exploded. And yeah, the Milky Way, and it was it was yeah, it was really special. Special time. It was very quiet. Yeah, it was nice. Wow.
SPEAKER_01And you're still itchy.
SPEAKER_03I'm still really mosquitoes.
SPEAKER_01They do that, man. Camping last weekend, I was wearing a sweatshirt and sweatpants, and they got through for some I don't know how they Oh, they're strong.
SPEAKER_03I was surprised. That's crazy.
SPEAKER_01What's your what's your wonder quest results?
SPEAKER_08Um Yeah, I uh I I I think I dropped the biggest ball of the group and I did not do it. I don't know what's gonna fast. We love you. Wow, thanks for the acceptance. Yeah, I totally forgot. Um yeah, I totally totally forgot for this one.
SPEAKER_01But do you think that your anxiety prevented you from doing it?
SPEAKER_08Um it could it could have had an inadvertent effect, probably. I think it feels uh unrealistic to say it had no effect.
SPEAKER_07Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_08Um I also had a rather busy week the last week and a half. So um it just totally slipped my mind, and then we talked about it the other day, and then I had too many things and just totally forgot about it.
SPEAKER_01I gotta put the Wonder Quest in my calendar every single multiple times in my calendar. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_08Because otherwise I'll I'll drop that ball too. Totally. Yeah, it's hard.
SPEAKER_06Scheduling. Yeah, tricky. Anyway. Yeah. What I don't recommend is just having it all on your mind and not writing any of it down. That's what I've been doing.
SPEAKER_01The Wonder Quest. Oh, you mean the calendar.
SPEAKER_06Everything in my life.
SPEAKER_01I can't do that. And you have ADHD. I I am not I'm not I wouldn't be nothing would be possible without my Google Calendar. That's my that's my uh That's because uh that's because of where I live and what I'm doing is why I'm saying that.
SPEAKER_08Yeah.
SPEAKER_01If I were you know in the wallawas, it'd be different.
SPEAKER_08Right.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_08Less things to worry about.
SPEAKER_01I'd just be like, okay, I'm gonna just look out look out for those stars.
SPEAKER_06And that's like what I crave all the time. And it's always this dichotomy that I'm faced with is this desire to just disconnect from my phone and from like the hustle and bustle and to really just be focused on my group and connecting and like having this like spiritual experience in the backcountry. And then also wanting to like have a career and you know, shoot for the stars, the other stars. Yeah, the other stars.
SPEAKER_08Um and I'm constantly going between the two.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_08Yeah. I know we were talking about that last time actually with G, a little bit about the balance oscillation of all these kind of competing interests, right? Because they um moved to Vermont in December, I think, of last year. Um for a job. Um and um yeah, have been just trying to kind of figure out how to balance that with all the other various things that are going on, you know. I mean, and it's I feel like it's an eternal struggle. You know, it's like in the past, I think maybe people were just like, oh, I'm just not going to do that, right? Like it's like, oh, I'm gonna just make the job as the number one thing, and then everything else is secondary, and now there's no decision to make, right? Basically. And but if you're not willing to do that, right, if you're not willing to to take the cost that that imposes, which is significant, it is. Then you have a much thornier problem. Or much I don't know, about thornier, but more challenging, definitely, right? You got all these variables to try to decide how to balance.
SPEAKER_06Totally. I feel like I'm constantly doing these cost-benefit analysis, yeah, decision making of where do I want to sacrifice energy and then where do I want to try and find to build it and like have fun things to go do. And um, a lot of the times I sacrifice you know being present at work or um, you know, responsibilities that are like secondary to like recreate and to uh build community and connection because that's so important for me. And I love I'm I'm a I'm a seven, which I don't know if you're familiar with. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01I know that you're talking about Enneagram, but I don't know anything about a seven or about any of them.
SPEAKER_06The entertainer.
SPEAKER_01Got you, got you.
SPEAKER_06And I love I love doing things.
SPEAKER_00You're the life of the party.
SPEAKER_06I like to I like to build bridges between different groups and and so a lot of else falls to the wayside, and so I'm as I'm becoming more of an adult, as I'm getting close to 30, I'm like, oh, okay, maybe there's some other things to reevaluate with this cost-benefit analysis. Yeah. Set myself up later to be able to do it with more ease.
SPEAKER_01I'm curious what responsibilities you let fall by the wayside. Do you feel like sharing?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_01Like dishes or paying bills or Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06I I definitely think it's a lot of um just like small life things. Like I will I'm not very organized and unless it comes to like the gas tank, all of those things. Those little yeah, little things. Um lots of like little life things that it takes then a whole day to do versus if I were to just like maintain them throughout the week. Yeah, sure. And so then I have to like sacrifice a day to like feel like I'm back on top of things. Um and then with my job, it's always it's I'm pretty much on 24-7. I know. That seems really hard. It's it's yeah, and it's something where I've been doing it now for quite some time, and I'm starting to realize that it's just not going to be sustainable. Um because I'm always on call. I've always got this stream of text messages coming in when I when I get out of the backcountry after having my phone off for five days. I got like 200 text messages. It's insane. 200 text messages, a fuckload of emails, and like all these like crisis.
SPEAKER_01And you're not and you said you're not great at texting back.
unknownI'm pretty bad.
SPEAKER_06I can get I just get overstimulated by the influx of like information. And I I think this is just a part of maybe just ADHD, whereas I formulate a response in my head to these text messages and then do not send them. Because I'm like, Yep, okay, check. That's what I will say, go on to the next. That's what I'll say. When I write back. Yeah. And then I'm like, oh, I got another opportunity to go on a run. Oops.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, oops, I left my phone at home.
SPEAKER_06Yep. Oopsies. So yeah, it's just finding uh moderation. I'm I'm I'm somebody that loves to swing the pendulum, you know, mm very far. I I don't like the middle. I like extremes. Type 2 fun. Yeah, I like type 2 fun. Yeah. And then I like to do all my work at once. And then yeah.
SPEAKER_00Procrastinate? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I've I'm I've been in school for a while now. I don't think I've like completed an assignment like ahead of time. It's always night of.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Same.
SPEAKER_06It's just how we operate.
SPEAKER_08So same. Yeah, I got yeah. I remember like maybe it's maybe like three or four times, right? I can remember in school being like, oh wow, it's like it's like two days before this thing is due and it is done. Like, that is crazy. What does that feel like? Honestly. But most of the time it's like not like, yeah, it's like you're up at like two in the morning the night before getting it done because that's how we do. It's just not that fun. No.
SPEAKER_01I have had the whole month of July to edit a 300-page manuscript of a book.
SPEAKER_06Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01It's due tomorrow night, and I'm pr I'm close, but I just am aware that I'm stressed about it, and I still have some work to do. I still have some work to do, and I also have a ton of other stuff going on. But I did this to my uh to myself, and also at the beginning of July, I I said I don't know how I'm gonna get through this, but I'll just figure it out. I'll just I'll find out when I get through it, how I made that work.
SPEAKER_05Right. So be able to look back on the five.
SPEAKER_01But I've I've been working on it throughout the month, but I also am a human against my efforts to not be or something. Um can we spin the wonder wheel? That's what I'm doing. Is it time? Okay. Alright, Chad. Okay. Hold this by the microphone and give it a whirl.
SPEAKER_06Here we go. We've got big questions.
SPEAKER_03All right.
SPEAKER_01Do you have that up?
SPEAKER_03Let's see here. I'm so excited it's big questions.
SPEAKER_08I don't know what the other options were, but I'm excited it's that one. Um what's something you do differently when no one is watching?
SPEAKER_06Oh. Okay. Um I definitely try to make myself appear to be way more organized than I actually am, which is funny because this is like perfectly filters into what we were just talking about. I try and show my bosses, my clients, and things like that that I have got everything kind of filtered out hour by hour when it is such it is such a scam. It is just so not true. Um and I think it's because it's that's what I see as being like successful in this field, and I and I have a lot of people that I look up to that that's how they have their lives. Um and so instead of actually doing it, I just kind of make it look good.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06Um and I'm really stepping into this like coming as I am instead of where I want to be. Totally.
SPEAKER_01That's powerful. You just did the open thing. Hell yeah.
SPEAKER_06I did the open because it's vulnerable. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Um, I want people to think that I'm this like very, you know, uh type A person, but it's just it's just not who I am. Um you know, there's always places to improve on that, and I'm looking to do that. Um but yeah, I definitely am not uh that that hour by hour person.
SPEAKER_08Yeah yeah well and it's like that's important like okay there's like sort of a base level of necessity for that level of organization but like there's also a huge amount of value to being able to be spontaneous and like come up with new stuff and be creative in that way that like people who are super organized cannot do.
SPEAKER_01Also for context, can you share what your job is?
SPEAKER_06Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because in the intro we said life skills coach.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah, which is it is true. And I'm also now a C A D C R, so I'm a drug and alcohol counselor um working for uh my hours to finish that up, and then I'll be going to school um after spring uh once I finish up the uh program at COCC uh to get my bachelor's in counseling and then eventual a master's in in therapy.
SPEAKER_00Hell yeah.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah. So I I work with young adults um 18 to really like 36. We don't have like a super hard cutoff on how old. Um and we're a program where a lot of our clients um are coming to us after like a 90-day inpatient treatment or detox. And they're gonna be with us now for like three months as a minimum, up to a year. Um and they're learning how to uh essentially just build their lives and and uh act on it and live the life that they want while they still have some support structures and and you know staff and a sober space to to come home to.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_06And then I'm also the activities coordinator. So it's kind of fun. I get to like blend both of my loves um and I'll take the guys out on like extended like backpacking trips, river trips, um, I'll do some climbing with them and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_01It sounds like a a very cool job and it seems like a good fit for you.
SPEAKER_06Oh, it's it's amazing. I am so lucky. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But back to back to this um question about what you do when you're when you're not uh you said that when you're with them, you're acting like you're on and that you got your shit together. And then but then how are you or who are you when you're not there?
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_01How does that work? Or what yeah.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, and a lot of it is it's more around just like the scheduling piece, is like that's where I'll kind of put up a front to make it seem like I'm more of a professional.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, more organized than I see myself. Really on top of it.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. Yeah. And then when I'm actually meeting with them, I try to uh completely tear down any of like the narratives that I have for myself and really try to be vulnerable. Um and I'm a huge fan of just like a very like meta form of of of counseling and and looking at how our relationship is looking, because I can see a lot of um things that can be projected onto me with their transference, and then ways that I can have counter-transference onto them with their experience and ways that I've seen myself act in their same shoes and my own recovery. Um and that's the only thing that worked for me was having these uh male sober uh people that I could I identify with and and see be unbelievably transparent with me and uh tell me what worked for them and what didn't. Um to know that they also walked through the same, you know, shit and fire that I did was the only way that I was able to get sober. Um and so I try to offer that same thing to any of my clients, and I'm a huge uh proponent in just providing like a secure attachment where I'm consistent. I'm able to show up each week, same time, even if they don't like really necessarily like me. It's like what you see is what you get. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um I feel like having the consistency is so big. It must be important.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah. Especially working with guys with you know trauma and and you know different attachment uh uh you know problems in their life with adults and especially authority. Totally. Um it's it's really cool to be able to come in and work on on just being secure with them, um, which then helps me in my own life to to be secure, you know, and in some relationships which I'm in let the record show I am definitely not secure, but you know, it's it's it's a work in progress for sure.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, I guess that's kind of it. I mean, that is a sort of unique, I'm just thinking from your perspective, that like there's sort of this setting where you maybe have to like perform more security than you actually feel. Yes. Which I I mean, I don't know, in my experience, like a lot of times those things like that is actually a pretty effective way to get better at it. Oh, yeah. You know, is like performing it. Uh it's like a the fake it till you make it strategy, like is quite effective. It is really work is like, and you know, that doesn't, especially in that context, like that isn't something most people would have a setting that facilitates, right, or forces them into doing, you know?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. And it's it's something where it's like I have to do my own work outside of this job if I want any hope of like actually being authentic and like making any sort of like difference and change. Um because I'm in this for change. I want to see people grow and I want to help facilitate that. And sometimes my impact is small and sometimes it's you know it's it's big. Um and then you know, sometimes I'm just being there can be enough as somebody else who's kind of walked the same path. Um and I get to sometimes I'll feel almost like a poster child of like.
SPEAKER_01I mean you're you're showing them what's possible.
SPEAKER_06Yes, yeah, yeah. And I just like to share what worked for me um and then try to meet them where they're at if that doesn't work for them and see if we can find you know different alternatives. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, it's I love hearing about your job.
SPEAKER_06Thanks. Yeah. It's it's it's kind of wild because I never like talk about it with people that are aren't in the world. Oh, sure. And so it's it's kind of like a unique experience for me to to chat about it like in this way. Um and then I also then reflect, I'm like, oh yeah, shit, it is really stressful. Yeah, I bet really stressful. I bet and and unbelievably heartbreaking at times.
SPEAKER_01What's the most stressful part about it?
SPEAKER_06I think the most stressful part is that um I feel this constant obligation to be available at all times in case shit hits the fan. Yeah. And then I get to either in crisis to then uh be the person that is secure. You know, we built this this rapport so that um they can unravel in front of me and I can be able to hold them. And that's exhausting. It's and especially when I have a hard time unraveling in front of other people. And and you know.
SPEAKER_00Do you?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah. And it's well, it's because I trust you so much and and and love hanging out with you that I let you know. I let you see I let you see the unravel from time to time.
SPEAKER_01It's an honor. Thank you.
SPEAKER_06And so it's it's it's so important for me to be able to have my space outside of it and to have healthy boundaries within this work. Yeah. So that when those moments do come up, I feel able to give energy into it and I'm not showing up half-assed because then it's like I might as well not be there. Totally. Totally. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I'm curious how your um so I think we have a question for later that's on this topic, but I think whatever. We're here. I mean, we're here. I don't remember the question right now. There's no rules. There's no rules.
SPEAKER_07Oh, I like it.
SPEAKER_01Um Okay, now what was my what was my question? Uh I'm curious hearing you talk about it, what the impact on your identity is when you're not at work.
SPEAKER_06So this is actually something I've been actually grappling with a lot lately, is um my job and how I interact with my uh the guys that I work with, I feel are completely wrapped up in also my own sobriety. Where if I were to relapse and go back out, I would not have the credibility and legs to stand on to actually like assist these guys. Is and that's that's a big fear that I have is that if I intertwine these two, um, I'll lose I'll lose my own recovery.
SPEAKER_01But haven't you already intertwined them?
SPEAKER_06I I have. And so I'm I'm kind of in this this process uh currently where I'm trying to uh get back down to the basics of like so so I completed the the 12 steps through Narcotics Anonymous and the you know the first step is is uh looking at do you have a problem? And what you're trying to understand is do you have any sort of understanding of your own self-efficacy and being able to stop using? And then at the end of it is um are there any reservations that you're still holding on to that you could use and and have it be manageable?
SPEAKER_01And that's a searching question.
SPEAKER_06And I have always had reservations, and I still do. I've I've I've got four and a half years of time completely absent from uh drugs and alcohol, um, except for one slip-up with a bowl of noodles.
unknownWhat?
SPEAKER_06Classic.
SPEAKER_03I got fucked up off a bowl of noodles by accident.
SPEAKER_00What do you mean what was in it?
SPEAKER_03It was uh so quick story.
SPEAKER_06I was with my I was with my ex and we went down to the coast and we went and we're we're digging for um oysters, and she brought a bottle of white wine to cook and make the sauce with. And I was like asking her because she poured in fucking like three quarters of the bottle with this bottle of wine. It's like some butter and shallots. I was like, is that gonna cook down? She's like, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It cooks down, it cooks down super quick. And I was like, okay. And so I smack this ball, this bowl of pasta, and was like, and then I like stood up and we were sitting talking. I stood up to go and get another plate of food. It was so good. And immediately it was like the floor got pulled out from under me. I hadn't had anything in my system for like three years. Yeah, yeah. And it was yeah, it was it was a trip. It was uh That sounds like a yeah, I was I was pissed because I wanted I was like, man, if I if I wanted to relapse, I would have done it not with wine and not with a bowl of noodles.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_06I was like, I was gonna do it big. Yeah, yeah, totally. So it it was it was very interesting, and I actually had to just like ride through it. I was very anxious. I didn't want to like reset my sober time. I was like, what are people gonna think? Seriously, all the stuff.
SPEAKER_00It's so weighted, I bet.
SPEAKER_06Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_06And that was like my first real insight that these are so intertwined, and uh that my identity and my friendships, my you know, all the my community is built around sobriety. And like I moved even to Bend to get sober. I went to the same place that I'm working at to get sober. Um, and so I have this very interesting relationship with Bend where it is sober, you know, and I've like I've never used here or anything like that, and that was a huge part when I was leaving my my 90-day inpatient was to get away from home and and to build something new. Um, and yeah, that next morning after that I called my sponsor and I was like, oh man, I'm freaking out, I'm gonna have to like reset my sober time, and he just starts dying laughing. He's like, you idiot, you're fine, dude. You're totally fine. And so that that compassion and that love and him being like, I did the same thing, dude. I got fucked up off a Tyramese suit. We just call that we call we call that shit a free lapse and we move on.
SPEAKER_07Freelapse!
SPEAKER_06That's amazing.
SPEAKER_01So it was like, okay, nothing's lost.
SPEAKER_06Nothing's lost. He's like, look at your intention. What was your intention going into it? The important thing. Yeah, and it was just like, have fun. We went clamming. I like I even looked up will it will this bull of noodles fuck me up? Exact Google search.
SPEAKER_01Before you ate it.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, before I ate it.
SPEAKER_01Like, how long does it take for mine to cook too?
SPEAKER_06It turns out it was like five hours. And I was like, it says five hours.
SPEAKER_01She's like, did it, may I ask? Um, this might be even more vulnerable than you're already being. How did it feel? I know you said you had some anxiety. How did it feel to be under the influence after so long?
SPEAKER_06It was weird. It was so weird. It was very familiar. Interesting. It was so familiar. It was this place that I've known, and it was dark and I was completely cut off spiritually. And before I got sober, that was like a huge thing that I struggled with, which was this I felt like there was just this complete disconnect between me and any sort of spirituality and like my true self. And I was completely acting on impulse, craving, and just the desire to be completely numb. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_06And I felt that numbness again for the first time in a long time. And I just sat there and it was like almost like shaking. It was like it it really it really fucked me up. Um and I recited the Serenity Prayer, which is said at the beginning of like each NAAA meeting.
SPEAKER_01Just to ground you.
SPEAKER_06Just to ground me, which is is God, grant me the serenity for all the things I cannot change. Um yeah, and goes on. But um, yeah, it uh it was it was it was weird, it was it was oddly familiar, and I didn't like it. And so it was cool to like have that. Totally. And be like, I don't want this anymore, and I've I've grown past this place. And um and I'm and not to say that's like drinking, you know, it's just it's just not for me. You know, like I I've got so many friends that that that drink and that they can party and they can and they can do it and have no problems.
SPEAKER_01They can make it work, yeah.
SPEAKER_06They can make it work, and I always watch them. Like I'll go out to dinner with them and they'll like leave some of their like drink in their cup. And like that's how I really figured out I was an alcoholic because I'm sitting there watching them like how they drink, yeah, and I'm like, I just don't understand how you can leave that. I I was the guy that was cleaning everybody else's drinks before we were leaving.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_06So yeah, yeah, it's it's just I I realized that it was not for me. But it's the reservations are sneaky and it's and it's tough grappling with the reality that I am an addict and an alcoholic because it frustrates me that because I believe in change so much. I believe that there is so many different ways that you can become a new person and and grow out of things.
SPEAKER_00Leave stuff behind.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, and I think that's just my my like hopefulness just for like humanity and just what we're capable of as humans. Um and so to put like a never on something, I'm like always very just like, mmm, you know, you can't say that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, very, very black and white.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah. It's and it's what it took for me to get sober, um, was to just have it be like I cannot do this. Totally. Totally. Um but you know, as I've gone further into it and like uh uh just have realized what's important for me, I just have to take it. It's it's very like cliche in the in the AA and NA world is to just say you just take it one day at a time.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_06And it's like, and today I don't feel like getting fucked up.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_06You know, I'd rather have a connection to like beautiful people um and and the ability to like show up for the things of my life, even if I'm not on time for them.
SPEAKER_01And to just wake up and not be like, okay, wait, what happened last night?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah. I've got an I'm I'm I'm existential and got enough of my own shit to like have to pile on any anymore. You know?
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_06And so sober life for me right now is uh is a-okay, and it's feeling actually really, really good and pretty beautiful.
SPEAKER_00Good.
SPEAKER_01Sober king. So thank you for talking about it. I think it's cool that you're willing to talk about it uh on here.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Thank you.
SPEAKER_06Oh, for sure. Yeah, and that's that's a huge like I I want to be open about it, you know, because in case I don't know, anybody else listening or probably a lot of folks a lot of it resonates probably. Yeah, flirted with the idea of sobriety. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You haven't heard a whole lot about Chad's journey, have you?
SPEAKER_08Um No. Uh we've talked about it a couple of times. I think the first time I met you, we kind of uh round. Noodles. Yeah, noodles actually utterly picked up noodles.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think it's a good one. That's right. Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_01That was fine. By the way, I sent you a mechanical bowl video. Did you make the connection?
SPEAKER_06I owe I actually commented back.
SPEAKER_01I know I saw it.
SPEAKER_06What isn't that me?
SPEAKER_01I'll have to send it to you while we'll love it.
SPEAKER_03Definitely. Meredith almost destroyed me when we were right in the top. That's right.
SPEAKER_01Wait, what? You fell right on top of me in the When we fell on the ground.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Shit. Yeah, you gotta you better watch out for that.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, the dumpy came in.
SPEAKER_03Come in the high, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, she thick.
SPEAKER_06That's not a worse way to die. Face full.
SPEAKER_01Um shall we spin the window wheel again?
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Oh uh spin again. Spin again.
SPEAKER_04Oh shit. Alright, let's do that again. Spin a yarn.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_08Alright, so this is uh we're creating a story together, one word at a time. Okay, sick. In a round. Okay. Um So I'll start. Uh Charlie.
SPEAKER_05Eight uh ribbon of cheese. Which fucked.
SPEAKER_00Period.
SPEAKER_01Afterwards.
SPEAKER_05He went under Anesthesia.
SPEAKER_01While meddling. With You're overthinking it, bro.
SPEAKER_03No way. No way. It's probably the most helpful thing to say right now. This is not in character at all. We're with. Yeah, with. With meddling with. Sure.
SPEAKER_01Objects. Period. Period. Then the craziest event you have ever.
SPEAKER_02Ever.
SPEAKER_08Ever came out. Two much.
SPEAKER_01Applause.
SPEAKER_03Period. Okay.
SPEAKER_01That's a period.
SPEAKER_03Should we recap what happened to our boy? Charlie.
SPEAKER_06So we ate a large ribbon of cheese. Went under anesthesia.
SPEAKER_00Something, something sharp object. Sharp objects?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, you went under with meddling with very, very sharp objects. It's pretty spicy. Yeah, he was lactating darn though. Cheese. Yeah, yeah. Not as a cheap. Didn't know that lactaid. No. But the crowd went wild nonetheless.
SPEAKER_08Amazing.
SPEAKER_01Deep breath. I just got it. I just got a breathe. I got a reset.
SPEAKER_03Sometimes they're hitters. Sometimes they're ribbons of cheese with it.
SPEAKER_01Sometimes they're really good. Okay. One more wonder.
SPEAKER_08Great.
SPEAKER_01Wheel. And this time it's your turn.
SPEAKER_08Okay, perfect.
SPEAKER_01And try to get the wonder scale, please.
SPEAKER_05Yep.
SPEAKER_08Thank you.
SPEAKER_01That'd be helpful. See, it's the wonder scale.
SPEAKER_06Wonderscale. Look at that intuition. Narrative did not even look no just name.
SPEAKER_01I don't think it it it was something else, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_08It was the wonder scale.
SPEAKER_01Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_08What are you talking about?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Okay. So how many wonders? We have a couple of bullet points for you.
SPEAKER_08Okay.
SPEAKER_01We want to know how many on a scale of one to ten wonders. How many wonders do you give?
SPEAKER_08Uh UFOs. Ooh. Out of ten. Ten, wow, starting off hot.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah, ten.
SPEAKER_00Why why is that?
SPEAKER_03I am such a firm believer in aliens. In such a like fun way. Yeah, yeah. When like that whole like uh congressional hearing happened with aliens.
SPEAKER_01I was lucky. Wait, which one?
SPEAKER_06Oh I don't even know. Ooh, Meredith. I was at Lone Pine working, and and this came out maybe like what was it? It was like two summers ago where where all of these like whistleblowers came forward. Oh, like navy pilots who just like spinning scene who saw like all of these UFOs, and they're like, We saw UFOs with non- Human, like biological matter in them.
SPEAKER_01Fuck yeah.
SPEAKER_06And I take I I literally took that and I was like, yeah, I believe that.
SPEAKER_01They saw space mass. Yeah, I I believe it completely.
SPEAKER_06This one guy was like, a UFO descended on our space station. Or not space station, uh, whatever is like the army base or army base. And this is the size of a football field. Jesus. And then just took off. Whoa. And I looked at this guy and I was like, I believe him.
unknownI believe.
SPEAKER_01I believe.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01It's just fun. It's fun that we've got to do. We watched, is it Departure?
SPEAKER_06We watched um um Arrival. Arrival. Arrival together.
SPEAKER_01Not departure together.
SPEAKER_06Very close. Very close. Yeah. It's like word association.
SPEAKER_01Have you seen a movie?
SPEAKER_06No. Fantastic. Really? Fantastic. It's all about language and the ways that it separates us. And then can also unite us in the alien. Well, I won't give it away. It's fantastic. I just watched Independence Day last night.
SPEAKER_01Oh. Haven't seen it. Is that about aliens? What?
SPEAKER_08You haven't seen that? Oh my god. Yes, it's about aliens.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_06It's a fantastic. It's fantastic.
SPEAKER_00We'll put it on the list.
SPEAKER_06I know. This sounds like the Joe Rogan experience. Aliens.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I I believe in them.
SPEAKER_06Me too. I believe.
SPEAKER_08I think it's more fun to yeah, totally. It's like you can't really know right now. And so like you could have fun or not, and you might as well have fun. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01Well, but also I just believe.
SPEAKER_08And that too.
SPEAKER_01Even though I'm even if I'm not having fun.
SPEAKER_06That's fair.
SPEAKER_01Thank you.
SPEAKER_03I hate it, but uh, you know, what can I do? They scare you. I know.
SPEAKER_01I mean biological matter.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, come on.
SPEAKER_01That's cool.
SPEAKER_06That is cool.
SPEAKER_01I wonder what it looked like.
SPEAKER_06I know.
SPEAKER_01What the fuck is what is what does that look like? Space goop.
SPEAKER_08Space goop. How many wonders do you give you a five?
SPEAKER_01Oh, ten. Um wait a s yep, obviously it's a ten. Yeah.
SPEAKER_08I think I'm gonna give them an eight. Okay. Only because I like don't really experience them. That's fair.
SPEAKER_01I never experienced it either.
SPEAKER_08Okay, great.
SPEAKER_01Okay, back to you.
SPEAKER_08Glad to clarify that. So you weren't abducted by Alien as a child.
SPEAKER_01No. But you you said you were on the last episode.
SPEAKER_08That's true. I did, I did make the claim that you're.
SPEAKER_01You said my parents found me in a field.
SPEAKER_08Yeah. Whoa. Superman style.
SPEAKER_03Really?
SPEAKER_01You are ready to believe. I love this. A football field.
SPEAKER_03Wow. Yeah. Football field sized field. Yeah, I'm easily I'm easily bought in.
SPEAKER_01Really?
SPEAKER_06I mean, I'm also easily susceptible to cults, but that's another those usually do go together.
SPEAKER_03They do go into there.
SPEAKER_01I've been steeping in that cult juice lately. More of it. Again. More. Yeah, I was listening to a podcast on um whether cult leaders believe what they teach or whatever lead about. Do you know Alex O'Connor?
SPEAKER_02I don't.
SPEAKER_01He has a podcast called Within Reason. Anyway. So yeah, Colts definitely been into them.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Okay, what's the next one? Wait, did you want to say more about UFOs?
SPEAKER_08Not really. I mean, I'm interested in them. I believe in them, and like they are just not I don't have a wondrous attachment to them because I don't they're so I totally understand what you're saying. If I saw one in real life, I'm sure it would be a fucking 20 out of 10. Right, right. Only a 20 though. It would blow my fucking mind.
SPEAKER_01It'd be like an 800 for me.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, okay. Sorry. The scale's infinite.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Because like when you said UFO, I was like, oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, totally. Wonder. But I don't think about UFOs. You know, so it's like I understand the eight.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. Um we don't all have to agree, actually. It's allowed to.
SPEAKER_01You have to agree. We all have to have the same number. Um a few years ago, I was asked to help out on a Netflix show about aliens. I don't remember what it's called because I haven't watched it. But I was the um like snack bitch for the people for the talent, so like the camera crew and everyone. I was the person that was like, here's your water bottle, can I wipe your ass for you? Um I don't know what the job is called.
SPEAKER_08Is it called like a PA or something or something like that? Something, something, something. Runner.
SPEAKER_01It was fun. It was five days in uh Burns.
SPEAKER_08Oh wow.
SPEAKER_01And um Fossil.
SPEAKER_08Oh, that's kind of cool.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_06Did you get to see some cool spots?
SPEAKER_01Tiny little spots in Oregon.
SPEAKER_06I remember bumping into you at the Albertsons. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01When I was on clock on the clock.
SPEAKER_06Yes, and I was like, your hair looks fantastic.
SPEAKER_01Was it a mullet?
SPEAKER_06It was when you first mulleted.
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_06Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01Are you serious? Damn. That's a deep cut.
SPEAKER_06It's a deep cut. I'm just all coming back to me right now.
SPEAKER_01What color was it?
SPEAKER_06Uh it you had like the blonde like headlights. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Sweet. Um it's been blue, it's been red.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah, many colors. I was like, you look great. Oh yeah, I'm about to do this Netflix thing. I was like, oh my god.
SPEAKER_01So the there was a farmer or a property owner who was out in the field and he said that he witnessed an alien ship land in his field and he taught he described it. It was like a row of green lights and a row of red lights or something. And then he grought out his sh his big gun and pointed it at them as if that would have done anything. And then they just disappeared. Like they didn't move up into descent or they didn't move anywhere. And then they left behind me too. And then they left behind uh like marks from the spaceship in the field.
SPEAKER_08Did you see the marks?
SPEAKER_01No. Um I didn't get tough on the story. I didn't look, but if I watched the show that I was helping, I don't remember what it's fucking called, but I mean maybe they took uh videos of it. Anyway. But it was there. They were there.
SPEAKER_06That's a cool thing to be a part of.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Wow.
SPEAKER_01And hey, I don't want them, I don't want anyone to get thirsty, so I was, you know, doing my job.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_08So that was it.
unknownNice.
SPEAKER_01Okay, what's next?
SPEAKER_08Uh scented candles. Scented candles.
SPEAKER_01Be honest, Chad, dig deep.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_06I like them. I like them. I like them a lot. You do? Yeah. But I I like only like very like soft, softly scented candles. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Do you have a favorite scent?
SPEAKER_06I I lean towards pine. I lean towards like nature smells. Um, but it's gotta be like the right type of of pine, otherwise it's like too like yeah, too much. Um I just try to bring the outdoors in with me in my in my spaces. Um I bought recently one from Whole Foods that I was really excited about, and it was so fucking expensive. It was like $35.
SPEAKER_01Oh no. Yeah, was it tall?
SPEAKER_06No, it wasn't. It was like not yeah, no. Um very impulsive. Um and then I bring it home and I set down the bag and it shattered. Oh, the candle, like the ceramic thing. And uh that was so expensive. It was so expensive. And so what I did was I just put a plate under it and lit it and let it all melt into scented candles. So I love them. I love scented candles.
SPEAKER_01That's cool. That's cool. I don't even think about you talking about scented candles gives me a headache.
SPEAKER_06Oh yeah. They're polarizing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm feeling some distance between us.
SPEAKER_06That's okay though. Oh if it's just scented candles, we can we can work through that.
SPEAKER_01I uh really love beeswax candles because they're cool and because I've learned that they clear they clean the air.
SPEAKER_06Ooh, interesting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and so uh other kinds of candles like soy and I don't know what other kinds there are, I'm often worrying that I'm just breathing in shit shit.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. I like the way um the beeswax burn. The type of flame that comes out of beeswaxes is really cool.
SPEAKER_01Compare it to another one, uh a soy one.
SPEAKER_06It's like so soft and so steady, and like the ones that I get are like kind of flickery.
SPEAKER_01It could be the wick.
SPEAKER_06It could be the wick. Could be the wick. I'm not sure if it's the whack.
SPEAKER_01Look, I'm not trying to yuck your yum.
SPEAKER_06Okay.
SPEAKER_01Okay. But I lived with uh like a a woman in Bend who made her own candles from local beeswax, and so they were just always burning in our house. And so I really, you know, I experienced the ambrosia from the gods. Yeah, that's cool. So it's hard to do other candles.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, because once you've had the best.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, you don't want to go back.
SPEAKER_06My uh girlfriend I had once was really into making candles, and the first one she made, she put like a bunch of like pines and like actual sticks in it to like make it aesthetic, and the shit was a bomb. She literally made a bomb.
SPEAKER_00That's hilarious.
SPEAKER_06She's so stoked. She like made these like nice uh like uh um uh like pictures on them, and like yeah, she was like the whole thing and the shit exploded. Yes, it like actually like hit the first I don't know what she put in it. Pine cone, dry pine cones pine cones, and she put like like little minerals in them too.
SPEAKER_01Oh, she really worked on them. Like crystals. Yeah, yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, and she made a pipe bump.
unknownDamn.
SPEAKER_06Or like meditating with it. I hope it smelled good. Yeah, it wasn't bad. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03It wasn't bad. Yeah, it was bad.
SPEAKER_08Oh god.
SPEAKER_00What about you?
SPEAKER_08I'm like a six on scented candles. I can appreciate them in sort of medium doses. Yeah. I'm with you on the natural sense. Yes. Like you go to the place and there's like a million candles, and like that's pretty heinous. It's pretty pretty rough for me. Yeah. A Yankee candle would kill a Victorian child.
SPEAKER_06Because they're already almost those scents were not meant for humanity.
SPEAKER_01I thought you meant because they already weren't very healthy to begin with.
SPEAKER_06Oh, that doesn't help.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, also there yet.
SPEAKER_01Very delicate dispositions. The Victorians, I assume.
SPEAKER_08I've gone to a couple of candle making parties though, with like where there's like, you know, somebody got some like rose hips and a bunch of juniper berries, and like that works for me. Nice, you know, that I can do. Soft sense. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And do you do beeswax or other stuff?
SPEAKER_08I prefer beeswax, but a lot of times um the parties I've gone to, the candle parties I've gone to have been like, I don't know if they're it's not beeswax, but something else. So I don't know.
SPEAKER_01I'm just so worried about breathing stuff in that's I mean, I'm ar we're already doing it. So I'm like, if I if I could pick a candle that's actually helping me instead of adding more stuff to my body.
SPEAKER_06That's fair.
SPEAKER_08No, I love a beeswax candle. They are they're big money though.
SPEAKER_00They are expensive.
SPEAKER_06Big money.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_06We should get into it.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, yeah, exactly. Lots to be made. Lots to be made. Beeswax candle department.
SPEAKER_01Um I'm wondering if we have the bandwidth for one more wonder scale and then take a break.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I love that idea. And seven for me out of the wonder scale. I didn't read it. Oh, okay. Oh, did we even do that? I forgot to give a number of seven for me. Sented candles. Sented candles one.
SPEAKER_01Um ten for beeswax. Nice. Um zero for all the other ones. Yeah.
SPEAKER_08Severe. Ten for beeswax, really. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they're great. They're great. I mean.
SPEAKER_08Okay. Yeah. All right. Um last one, uh, dick pics.
SPEAKER_06Sounds like a hate on I'm a huge proponent in dick pics. Okay, and let me let me explain.
SPEAKER_01And I hope you will. Please let me explain.
SPEAKER_06They are never unsolicited, and they're always for the friends. Okay. So I God, this is gonna sound let it out. I think it is so funny to get naked in front of my friends in like random times.
SPEAKER_01I was telling Wolf about your story when you had you We're already in it, right? Yeah, we're in it. Can I say it?
SPEAKER_06It's like full, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like you have some friends, maybe it was your old roommates or something, where you guys will take your Johnson out and but not announce it, and then you just wait for them to notice it.
SPEAKER_03Yep, yep. Yeah. We are middle school boys.
SPEAKER_06That's what it was down to. We took this picture in front of Eagle, Eagle Cap, right? And we did this self-timing photo, and it's like us, and we just like shared this amazing moment where we're like, man, we're just like so grateful to be out here with you guys. Like, really love you. I need to see your penis. Having some fun. And then as he's running over and we're up like this, I take my entire penis out of my face and didn't say a word. And it we're like kind of far away, so all you can really see is just like it's like we're all in like raincoats and like bug attire, and then you see a little bit of tan in the midsection.
SPEAKER_07And my buddy Travis is doomed and he's like that is your entire penis.
SPEAKER_01Do you have a word for that? You should figure out what you call this. Well, I forgot.
SPEAKER_06Well, I mean, when like we were in middle school, we used to call it braining each other. This is so this is a good thing. What do you mean brain?
SPEAKER_00Brain. Oh god.
SPEAKER_06I guess we're really in it.
SPEAKER_00It leans cold.
SPEAKER_06You would hold your testicles in such a way where they would resemble a broom. And then you would show your friends them. And then you would say, you just got brained. Very important, the last part. You have to acknowledge it.
SPEAKER_01I wish I had those to brain you guys with. Yeah, I do.
SPEAKER_06We need to create more like gender-fluid ways of braining.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like how am I supposed to brain you guys? We could get we could talk about it.
SPEAKER_06Maybe during break.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. We'll go stand by the pond and talk about options.
SPEAKER_06Um I have sent uh sent a dick pic.
SPEAKER_01A lot of them?
SPEAKER_06Uh I wouldn't say a lot of them. Maybe like 80. Where's the scale go?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's pretty low.
SPEAKER_06Um I've I've definitely have done my fair share of sexing when I was like in high school and like college. Snapchat was weird.
SPEAKER_01Oh, so many penises on there, I bet.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah. And I uh yeah, it was like always like with people I was like seeing at the time or something like that, or like like you know, we like we had hung out before and it wasn't like I this is my first time. Orientation.
SPEAKER_07I'm gonna brain you.
SPEAKER_06I'm gonna brain you. Uh but yeah, yeah, yeah, I've sent you. Yeah, yeah. It's all about it's all about the uh the angle.
SPEAKER_01Tell us what how what's the best angle?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I wish this was one of I would I would show. Um It's it's I mean you don't you just want it to be this.
SPEAKER_07It's so exciting.
SPEAKER_06I I'm just like realizing this is gonna be somebody's like first impression.
SPEAKER_03This guy's walking busting around to take a weird like a dick pic.
SPEAKER_08You you it's gonna be like I feel like the the the bar for the skill level is really low right now, and this could really be a good opportunity for people to elevate their dick pics. Okay, so alright, listen up, everyone's gonna be able to do it.
SPEAKER_00Like this is really this is helpful.
SPEAKER_06So I'm a huge proponent in the bit. I think it's funny, and especially if it's like if it's like a fun, flurry relationship. Those are the types of relationships I like. If it's if it's fun, it feels light, and it's flirty. Yeah. And so what I would have done in the past is I would be completely naked and have my my penis covered by just an object on my counter. Like completely covered.
SPEAKER_01Like what? Give us an example.
SPEAKER_06Uh my shaving cream can within one minutes. Got you. Got you. And and I'm completely naked, and it's just like, ooh, a little bit to the mystery. What is that? Next one, maybe a little shaft. On the side or little side, a little side shaft.
SPEAKER_00Side shaft.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's the new side movie.
SPEAKER_06It's the new side, yeah, little tease. Yeah, you know, and then and then you read it from there, and then and then I think it's important you get a good mirror shot. You don't want the selfie of like you looking down. That is criminal. That is a criminal dick pic. I see. That you jail.
SPEAKER_00It's done, bro. It's not sexy. You can't use Snapchat anymore.
SPEAKER_06No, get your get your features in there. Your jawline.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, your belly button.
SPEAKER_01Your belly button. Your happy trail. Are you kidding?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Six. Six. Okay.
SPEAKER_01What?
SPEAKER_06With to friends, I'm nine. I'm nine.
SPEAKER_01Why why is it not a ten?
SPEAKER_06Uh because it's not all friends. You gotta read the room. Yes, for sure.
SPEAKER_01You said it's not you said it's never unsolicited.
SPEAKER_06Never unsolicited unless it's with the right friends. And I've then, you know, like that one in front of the mountain was completely unsolicited. But I knew it would crush. I knew it was going to absolutely kill.
SPEAKER_00You could read the room.
SPEAKER_06I knew, and and we cried laughing about it. That sounds so funny. So long. For so long. Last part on that, we were at we were at the top of the mountain on the summit with one other folks next to us, and my buddy's taking this panoramic photo and this video, and I did the exact same thing.
SPEAKER_01Uh wait, the wait, so the the two friends you had, one of them was doing a panorama.
SPEAKER_06I was doing a panorama.
SPEAKER_01And then did Travis zoom in on it again?
SPEAKER_06No, no, and so he was just like, I was like right in front of him this time, and he was just trying to take this like artsy, like how beautiful it is up here. And then I pulled my entire penis out of my parents and shut the camera.
SPEAKER_08Oh, that's amazing. This is a whole new context for dick pics I've never thought about.
SPEAKER_01Like the nature surprise?
SPEAKER_08The nature surprise. Yeah. Or just the I think like like outside of a like a sexy setting.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_08Cause there I'm like, dude, that shit is like a fucking one.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_08Or a two. Like I think taking a sexy dick pic is like almost impossible. I mean, maybe it's possible, I've never seen it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I think it's I think it's really hard.
SPEAKER_03It's extremely challenging.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. It's not like the most attractive feature. It needs more context to really hit. To shine. Yeah, exactly. I think.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. And I also am a huge believer in just like the allure of like the that's why it's like the tease, you know, like wait till you're in person, that kind of thing. And so yeah. Snapchat's long gone.
SPEAKER_08No, Snap Snapchat is is alive and well.
SPEAKER_06It's long gone for me.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're still doing it. They are still doing it.
SPEAKER_06I'm sure it's popping. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Wow, well, thank you. Um I I just I'm searching my myself for something to add here. I don't have a penis.
SPEAKER_08And have you received dick pics?
SPEAKER_01I I not that I remember. Which is really surprising.
SPEAKER_08I know. I was trying to remember if I'd ever sent any before, and I was like, I actually don't remember. Like, not in a long fucking time.
SPEAKER_01I've received one. Well, I've received several.
SPEAKER_08You can never carry more than enough for all of us.
SPEAKER_01I've received several of other body parts, including the Vola.
SPEAKER_08Okay.
SPEAKER_01Not a butthole.
SPEAKER_08Never a butthole. That's surprising.
SPEAKER_01I'll hold out. I'll wait by the phone. Not yet. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So Yeah, but it would be.
SPEAKER_01I had a butthole era. And with that, you did it? You do? I do. We've talked about this? Sick. All right. BRB.
SPEAKER_05BRB.
SPEAKER_01My friends are too funny.
SPEAKER_08Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_08I mean, there are worse problems to have. Way worse.
SPEAKER_01We had a nice break.
SPEAKER_08Yeah. Indeed. Had some snacks.
SPEAKER_01Chad popped my back. He didn't succeed popping Wolf's back.
SPEAKER_03Did not. He's built. He's built like a wall.
SPEAKER_06Strong back, that guy.
SPEAKER_08That's true. They they do be saying that.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, I was curious. I was curious if you're gonna be able to pop it, because in general that's been it's like the lower like if I get picked up and like dropped like the lower basketball.
SPEAKER_01Has Connor done it to you?
SPEAKER_08No, I don't think so.
SPEAKER_01Have Connor do it.
SPEAKER_08Okay.
SPEAKER_01He'll rock your world.
SPEAKER_08We'll see about that.
SPEAKER_06What we'd have to do is a good 45 minutes beforehand of massage and gentle foreplay. A little cheese. And then it'll be a cheap. A little bit of edging.
SPEAKER_03A little edging. Yeah. But then that thing's going. Loosen up.
SPEAKER_00Pop off.
SPEAKER_03Give me an hour, Wolf.
SPEAKER_00I'm in. Yeah.
SPEAKER_08I'd like to observe.
SPEAKER_01I would.
SPEAKER_08For informational purposes only.
SPEAKER_01We have harvested a couple of uh questions for you.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01You've already seen them.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01Period. Um I gotta loosen up, man. Yeah, whatever. Uh Meredith, relax. We're all gonna die anyway.
SPEAKER_08We're all gonna die anyway. And then nobody's gonna remember you, and then everything's gonna be fine. So Yeah. We'll keep it.
SPEAKER_01Easy.
SPEAKER_08Alright.
SPEAKER_01Um It's your turn to be in the spotlight again.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, you're in the you're in the hot seat now, actually.
SPEAKER_01Oh hot. The power is back.
SPEAKER_08Power's back on. Alright.
SPEAKER_01The lighting is really nice.
SPEAKER_08It's so nice. And that's that's blue. Is blue good? We can change the color. Oh no, I like it. I like it. You can change the colors.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. He his parents did find him in a field.
SPEAKER_03This is sick. Isn't it fun? That's so fun. I saw these at Home Depot and I was like, should I buy them when I was done? Duh. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think blue is.
SPEAKER_08I'm fucking with the blue. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Same.
SPEAKER_08Okay, so Chad, you recently told uh Mayor that you're seeking more intimacy in friendships. Yes. Tell us more. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Showing.
SPEAKER_01I just I want to show my everyone that I'm close with.
SPEAKER_03Better than enough to finish that sentence.
SPEAKER_01And then I've shown my butthole to a few close friends. Our friendship has deepened.
SPEAKER_03That's how I'm feeling right now with these guys. I was on this trip with.
SPEAKER_06So I was telling I told Meredith this um post this breathwork session that I did. So it was a holotropic breathwork session for like 90 minutes. Um are you all familiar with holotropic breath work? No. So um do you know Wim Hof? Oh yeah, yeah. So it's it's it's a it's that type of yeah, pretty intense. Um and it's this like secular breath. So you're through your mouth. All through your mouth, not through your nose. Yeah. Interesting. And it's all about finding rhythm through it the entire time. And for me, that's the only way I can actually like have like release. For me, that's like how I'm uh ab able to process grief.
SPEAKER_01Um that style of breathing?
SPEAKER_06That style of breathing, it's insane. I have I've cried like a baby.
SPEAKER_00That's incredible.
SPEAKER_06And it's this it's this very cathartic and uh safe kind of container to be able to completely unravel. Um and then afterwards you share a little bit, and really you just are like in this days, it's it's it's it's almost very psychedelic in many ways. I've had visions, um, like one of them was like me like dancing around a fire with like my ancestors and my family on the other side of it watching me, and it's just like me embodying this like this very masculine um uh you know type of energy in my life. Um, and then with like all my family like watching me, and I've processed a lot of like my dad's health issues through breathwork. Um and in this latest one um that I did when I when I had this realization that I want to develop not even to develop but just share more with my friends what I what I love about them and what I see in them and things that I find beautiful because I hold I don't know why I hold on to them and I think there's like this this piece of uh this insecurity of masculinity too, and I have I've got a lot of friends that are you know very masculine, um, or so they think. And you know, I think I see I see so many like amazing like feminine qualities in them, um and like just the ways that they're able to hold space and and care and and you know those things. But I was sharing it. I had this this moment on the on a r a river trip I was on where we were all dressing up each day of the week, and um I for whatever reason like wanted to give my friend Steve like he was talking about how his bad his back was hurting, and I love massage and physical touch, and something I've always just like ever done with partners, so or you know, in in that way. And um I was like, dude, I would love to like give you a massage of for like 30 minutes, like that's awesome. Yeah, and it was just like this really cool like way. He said yes, yeah, and he was like, Yeah, and uh just to like share love like in that way for like his body, like working super hard in in I'm like in like a non-erotic, you know, setting, but just to like really like care for him and and love him. Um and then in within that too, I was within the breath work, I was just like dancing and moving the entire time. Normally it's very like sad for me, and it's it's a way for me to like actually connect to grief and and pain and and you know, depression, things that are very common for me that I don't really have an outlet to be able to um sit in. But then when I'm doing these breath works, it's like I'm in it completely and I'm able to feel it and move it and like see where the energy is and and how it's manifesting in my life. And in this uh particular instance, I was just like, I love my community so so much, and it's such a gift when somebody shares with you what they see in you in in that way that it's not looking for anything, but really just so that they know that I see like the work that they're putting in, how much they like work hard.
SPEAKER_00That you just appreciate that.
SPEAKER_06I just appreciate them so much, and it's because of them I'm who I am today. You know, and and um everything for me is is so community oriented and focused. Um it's so so important for me. I am such a like social person. I love friends and I love you know being able to like share love in those ways. And I sometimes can feel um that I just don't have the way to express it. Um and or or feel that I need to save it for like a partner or like a romantic relationship when that's just like couldn't be further from the truth. Like I've never felt more love in my life than even when I'm like alone for like this the the world that we're in and this these beautiful wild places. Um and then occasionally it's it's harder, but then even for myself, and I get to like direct it towards me. Um and yeah, so that was that was that was it. It was I I came out of that just being like, I need to tell the people that I love that I do love them. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Is uh words of affirmation one of your love languages?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, it is, definitely. I can um yeah, and it's something I want to to lean into more because it's I I love receiving them and it makes me feel so like validated and you know good and warm and fuzzy, and sometimes they can also be um, you know, uh counterproductive for me because then it's like I might not believe them for myself. Oh, sure. And and I can be uh using that just for for validation, you know, and so you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_08How how has it been have you excuse me, you've been experimenting with this? How has it been received so far?
SPEAKER_06It's been it's been cool. Like it's funny, I'll like catch some guys off guard who are like very like you know ride horses, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll sit.
SPEAKER_01Call me text.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. I won't kiss you right now.
SPEAKER_06You know, I was out with with my roommate Chris, and that was like how I've like perceived him. And then we and then I just got to like bring him in for a hug and be like, dude, I'm just like so grateful you're on this trip. And I'm like, and then I like kind of tailored it to him, and I'm like, and you're a dog. You got that dog in here, dude. Like the way that you are took his language. I took his language a little bit. You're a dog. I'm like, dude, you are just you're a fighter, dude. Like the way that you're like do it dealing with this hike, he's like never done anything more than like six miles, and we did 14 and like 4,000 feet of climbing with like 50-pound packs on. His feet were torn to shreds, and he just like never complained a single time, and was just like so happy to be out there that I was just like, dude, you like I see I I see this in you, and I see how hard you're working. Um, and and then I had to like look at me like wanting to rescue and like be a guide. Right. It's like going, Do you need to like tape for your feet? And this, and I'm like, that's his process. Yeah, and I will be and will make myself available if he needs help, but like we are sharing this in this together. Um, so yeah. That's beautiful, it's been well received so far, and it's fun muscle to continue to flex.
SPEAKER_08Totally. Yeah, I mean it feels like something where it's like it's like a habit to build up, yeah. Right? Where it's like not a thing that you have to think about every time necessarily, as much as it's just sort of like an integrated into the relationship dynamic in the same way that like you know, right, like maybe a more traditional strat um version of that is sort of like like making fun of your friends, right?
SPEAKER_01As like it's sort of giving them shit is right, giving them shit, yeah.
SPEAKER_08As like just the normal way that you show affection and love. Yeah. Right? That like you don't really think about doing it, you're just doing it as the way that you're used to, and to try to kind of repla I mean, not that that can be fun too, right? Totally. But to also have that not be the only way.
SPEAKER_01How about some tenderness?
SPEAKER_06So how about some tenderness, yeah. And it's something that I've I I feel like we all crave so so desperately. Um and I also feel that uh men can get starved of um is that tenderness in in just their relationships. Um and when you're able to like offer that in a way, um, I especially see it too with like clients that I work with. Oh yeah, I bet uh it's I just see it as is unbelievably profound and as a way that we can kind of change the narrative on what it means to be a man and how to support other men. Totally. Yeah. Um yeah, actually that relates another thing we wanted to ask about.
SPEAKER_01Um that segues perfectly.
SPEAKER_08Yeah. Okay, so uh right. Your um your community building recovery mentor work is all with men or mostly. Okay. Yeah. So those that identify as male. Sure, sure. Okay. Yep. Um so okay, so I'm really curious about that because like I feel like there's a lot of sort of discussion around like how to build male community, right? Because a lot of the traditional avenues for that are you know either not existent or they don't really have the weight that they used to to kind of like offer the you know, a sort of a preset, right, or a kind of like pre-established avenue to develop that. Um and it feels like there's a lot of discussion about like, okay, so what right, seeing the consequences of those going away with nothing in their place, right? Being quite traumatic.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_08What you know, a lot of discussion about kind of how what do we do about that, right? How do we build something new or like reapproach that in a new way without some of the negative aspects that that's had in the past. Um and I'm I'm really curious like what your experience has been with community building among men and kind of how Yeah, how that's gone and what you feel like has been interesting and what's worked well and Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Um that's a that's a fantastic question. Um W when I'm when I first listened into the question, the first thing I thought of was how I built community in the past, which was a lot of it was based on sports, activities, the things that we did, and being really good at them. Interesting. And yeah, and like having just this like air of kind of competition and also feeling that I didn't belong unless I was elite in um these these things that I that I did, rock climbing, running, w whatever it might be. I needed to be the best to earn my keep because as me, as just Chad, um wasn't enough in my head, right? I didn't even know like what my values w necessarily were if I were just to be distilled down. Um and then it transitioned into community around doing drugs and and you know, um partying, and it's been interesting to see as I've gotten sober, uh I still love those people in different ways, and it and our relationships look so different now. You know, where it's like we don't it's it's it's all changed because the the core infrastructure that was once built upon is now gone for me. Um and so we don't relate in a lot of different ways. Um I still, you know, like love them and you know cherish those those times that we've shared, but it's it's different, and I've had to kind of close some of those doors for myself. And I have had a a cheat code in terms of like the way that I've built community here, which is through uh 12-step. Because I completely like threw myself into 12-step because I was desperate. I had this gift of desperation looking for anything that would get me out of this super dark, really suicidal place that I was in. And um so I was I was open to suggestion, and that was when I was like, I need to go to treatment. And I went to treatment and then was around people that were struggling with the same things. So now our relationships were built on healing, of love, moving forward, re-engaging with these activities in a new way that feels that it's it's fun, right? That was like such a trip to me of like going, climbing again, not drinking, and not just trying to push grades, but instead like being outside and enjoying the rock and like using my senses, things that were totally turned up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. You didn't have access to that before.
SPEAKER_06No, those senses were muted. It was try hard, be strong, and then just I was just like one thing that I tell a lot of the guys that are that are coming into the program um is that I I urge you, and I I think it's the one of the most important things is to find community outside of just the guys in the house that are your community that you get to choose. Because you will always have the guys at the house as kind of your your fallback, it's a safe container, you've got us, and that we understand you and we see you, and I could care less about your achievements. I care more about what's what's on your heart, what's on your mind, why like where are you struggling, um, and like what growths are you like working towards to become a better person.
SPEAKER_01Um that's really impactful. Wow.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, it's and as soon as you're just like, oh, as a like I've got a D1 baseball player, and that was his life. And he's struggling so much now to because that was his identity. Right. That was his entire identity, probably basically. Oh, yeah, totally. To perform the sacrifices that are just you know immense, like that. Um and now to to go out and to find your own community, I I think it takes consistency. It takes you having to show up to the same thing over and over and over again. You know, I think that's like why high school is that you fall in love with you know friends and you know, and like have have like all of that is because you're there every day. Right. And um also I think for for men that's important to feel safe and trusted where there's not this like competitive urge and you get proximity with one another more often, and then you start to, you know, this is like the classic, it's like day one, you're just like just like a head nod. You know, day two You're a dog. Yeah, just like that's day four. Bro, you're a dog. Yeah, you know, give knuckles to them, and then the next one you're talking a little bit more and then and and loosening up and within 12 step, you know, you kind of jump right in. You are you're here for a particular reason, you're struggling with the same thing, and we are all equals. We it doesn't matter how much time you have, everybody is on the same page because you struggle with the same exact problem. And so when you have that kind of shared uh uh work that you're going towards, it creates brotherhood. Um and then you're able to, you know, then do things that are fun together and all that with knowing that this person understands me at such a core level and is able to hold my stuff.
SPEAKER_01That's quite a different foundation than the other options.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah, definitely. So I definitely have uh I I consider it a cheat code of like having just the best friends that I could ever ask for in my life. I have people that I can call any time of the day and I know they'll answer, and I can be in any headspace. I've had people carry me through through breakups, through health issues, and have like showed up to my door and have like s stayed with me. Um Wow. Yeah, and it it's it's unbelievable. Um I think like outside of like the sobriety field or just like world, um really it's it's about finding people that that you you you you find something in them that you want and that is how they how they carry themselves is is attractive to you in some way. Um and then just continue to show up and and know that you belong there also with them and you have something to add just the same. And that's how I feel like you can just create these lifelong friendships. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Wow, chat. Awesome.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, I I think I mean I'm I'm I'm thinking about that and it feels to me like outside of the context of the like shared challenge, or actually, yeah, I think that's true. I was gonna say or shared trauma, but I think it's actually more about the challenge and the work than it is about the past difficulty. Um like that feels probably kind of integral or like a huge part of what makes that work and what builds its strength. And I guess I'm I'm wondering like how like I wonder how you could facilitate that, or like how could how like what would it look like to create some that in a different context, you know?
SPEAKER_06Like some kind of shared challenge or shared and so I I feel like it can and this is something that I want to do once I'm like I get my masters, I want to lead these these men's retreats um or medicine walks, is what you can call them. And so the idea is that you're you come to it with a everybody's intention can be different, but it's all one shared idea of wanting to grow or let go of something. And uh what's cool is they can all be so different, but you can always take something from somebody else's. Totally. Um and I've done one before where it was like people that weren't sober, people who are, you know, people dealing with all sorts of different, you know, variety of issues. And you know, I think the the hard part is just like saying yes to something like that, it's because it can be kind of like out there, a little maybe a little taboo. Um but then once you kind of get through that beginning like awkward section and you're really just like you have somebody facilitating, just a like pretty much just a looking at everybody's heart and everybody bringing it forward, it's that is such a fast way to to creating connection. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because you're already seeing such a such an important and tender part of someone. So you're breaking past so many barriers.
SPEAKER_06So many. Yeah, you are expediting like what would take maybe like a really long time pretty quickly.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Um and if that's uh if that sounds like you and like that's not how you like to connect, and it's like find those people, you know? And and and and don't be afraid to like let them see your heart, and if they can't hold it, that's okay. You know? Totally. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I have a question for both of you.
SPEAKER_06Okay.
SPEAKER_01Um what is can you can you compare and contrast what it's like to uh to have to be friends with people who identify as men compared to people who identify as women? I want to hear both of your perspectives.
SPEAKER_08I've always had a harder, a much harder time making friends with men than with women. Um it depend I mean I'm a little particular, I would say, in both regards, right? With um but yeah, I mean I I that's always been that's always that's been a definitely a lifelong challenge for me is how to establish good friendships with men. I think it's just like uncomfortable for me to be more vulnerable in that context. Um Yeah. Whereas with women it's like very easy for me, right? Or I think I'm much more trusting of women in general than of men. Um and so it's easier for me to assume I mean I think and I think there is also like there this is certain that's certainly a big piece of it. And there's also I think like on average, like there's a pretty notable emotional intelligence diff average differ difference, you know. Um that I think has made maybe made harder for me in the past to sometimes connect with men. But it it's also then like I should assume that that's the case, right? I assume that that is the baseline when it's often not, probably. Um so yeah, that's always been a challenge for me, I would say.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. Yeah, I I yeah, I can I can relate. I've I've typically had especially earlier on in life, it was much harder for me to connect with with men. Um and was something I even struggled with like early on in sobriety, um, just because I felt this uh this need to be uh almost like in competition with and also be like very competent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um and yeah, and I I've had I still have a very Strong female presence and women in my life that um like I'm more I'm closer to my mom honestly than than I am my dad and um it's much easier for me to like share all of these things that are on my mind with with my mom versus my dad and so growing up I had lots of lots of girlfriends um and like romantic no no just just girlfriends yeah just friends um and then in the in the same line it it it would be tough because then the barriers would cross a little bit where we would establish like such a nice connection and then I'd start to confuse it as being romantic um and then that was like my own stuff of like you know really like craving that and then like putting that onto like my girlfriend um and so as I've gotten older I've had to uh just like look at that tendency um and look at like what need am I missing and um you know and that and I'm always I'm a huge proponent of like date your friends you know because I think that's great but um it's so important to like just have you know like platonic totally yeah uh multiple gender friends um yeah date your friends as in like leave leave flowers on their doorstep just because they're great date your friends as in like build a friendship first and then see if there's anything like romantic. Oh god I see what you're saying. Yeah which can be tough because you know yeah you can cross you can cross those those lines and you can like feel this amazing connection and then you're like oh shit is this what what should we do with this?
SPEAKER_01What should we do with this?
SPEAKER_06And I'm like feeling this and there's also just very like chemical things too that are gonna happen.
SPEAKER_08Yeah. And it always to me it always feels risky. Right. I'm like yeah am I will like right because the romantic aspect can be more volatile and it could also right I mean it could inevitably end or it could end and I definitely there have been times where I'm like I am intrigued in ex to explore that and I'm not sure I'm willing to risk either the friendship with that person specifically or like the group dynamic friend component you know it is to be like is it worth exploring this for that when there there's always that like sort of looming on the possibility horizon.
SPEAKER_06Yeah it's a it's a different beast when the heart starts to get intertwined in that way. Yeah yeah yeah yeah I um was thinking because it what when it's with a friend it's this you're you're able to talk about your relationship with them it's kind of like we were talking about on the break where it's like I so uh love when we're able to like get meta about our relationship of like oh like I I noticed you maybe like you did this when I kind of did that did did that make you uncomfortable with what I did or how are you feeling in this and you there's less risk it feels like within a friendship because there's it's like you both you both want to like grow and like be friends and and you're not going to risk like breaking their heart in that way or being something that you feel like you need to be for this like romantic person. Yeah.
SPEAKER_08It's a little bit more of at least for me come come as you are um so uh yeah yeah and and that's what I'm like I would love to work on in relationships you know too is like being able to to also have that well yeah and I think it helps that you have a pre-existing non-romantic dynamic like of of relating so that when there's like because I I think sort of like problem solving together and like working out relationship dynamics is sort of like not that romantic of an activity. Right I mean it's important and like really valuable and like it can be really it can make you closer but it's like not that romantic.
SPEAKER_01It's not it's not sex handles.
SPEAKER_08I don't I don't think so I mean yeah in its in the sort of like eros kind of way right it's sort of like it's removing all of the mystery which is really valuable but like the sexiness the Eros is like all about the mystery right like that's what makes it good. And so I think but the fact that you have this pre-existing dynamic of outside of that makes it so much easier to do that kind of problem solving and to have those kind of relationships because you're already used to moving in and out of that. Yeah right whereas if it's somebody new and you only know them in the romantic context it's like you have you don't there's no there's nothing to work with out there yet right and you have to build that from scratch at the same time which is a lot to ask. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And sometimes you just want to fuck. Sometimes you just want to fuck and you don't want to be like taking those slow steps.
SPEAKER_06Right. I I had a situation come up uh where I was seeing somebody and pretty early early on it was it was very flirty and like this person was like we're about to like watch this movie she's like can I pause the movie I was like it was like three seconds into pause the movie.
SPEAKER_01We're not actually watching the movie.
SPEAKER_06Can I kiss you? I was like yeah yeah and like neutralize like the tension and like you know it just like before it even like we're sitting through this movie. And then afterwards though I'm I'm such a like I want to like talk about things and almost do like a fault and like it's it's what I do for my job.
SPEAKER_01It's whatever you want to be a therapist.
SPEAKER_06I want yeah and I like I want to talk about like what came up for you and what came up for me and like it's like and it's something that always been doing a post game analyst. Looking at the stats. Yeah and um I like asked I'm like yeah like so like what is it that like you're like wanting from the she rolled off of like hardly look at my sound like you just gorged the vibe I mean she's just trying to keep it light keep it life but there was there was the answer the I don't know it was always an answer that was on the table right that it could have been offered.
SPEAKER_08Right.
SPEAKER_06It is right that's fair yeah yeah yeah yeah and so yeah and then I was like oh well you know we don't have to like I didn't mean to like you know try to pigeon you hold you and just like I don't really know yet for myself um but I guess I've been enjoying hanging out she took her hand and put it on my face she was like shh hilarious it was a good lesson for me to just like be in the moment too like it's it's it's also important to you don't have to immediately do paperwork.
SPEAKER_01You don't always have to you can just be right here for a sec.
SPEAKER_06Yeah and that's how my mind likes to work I want I want certainties and I like to like know but it's it's sometimes it's good to just be in the the moment and to like be present with it.
SPEAKER_01And then deal with it as it comes up with it as it comes up. Sometimes I I mean I am a very overcommunicative person. Would you agree with that?
SPEAKER_08I I think you're I think you're a intensive communicator but I wouldn't say over communicative intensive communicator I like that that's very true.
SPEAKER_01And um I had a thought it it it lost I lost it shit like sorry. Sorry I remembered it was it was that uh in some past relationships my efforts to communicate intensively like I may as not I may have not I may as well have not even tried. Because the other the partner wasn't receptive to communication or what do you mean by that exactly I'm not trying to get too specific about this one thing but like I was trying to dot my I's and cross my T's and catalyze all the conversations and make sure no one's getting heard and we're all on the same page and expectations being managed and it fucking it didn't work. Even though I I was like I'm I don't know how else I could have navigated this. So yeah sometimes I think it's nice to just try and be in it and not feel like it's all on your shoulders because it is a two person Yeah. It's both per people's responsibility to like recognize their needs and communicate them.
SPEAKER_06Totally. I was gonna say it sounds like you are almost splitting your energy into this other person's experience. Completely and then trying to almost articulate it for them completely of what based off of what you're feeling.
SPEAKER_01Yeah coming out and curate something specific for them.
SPEAKER_06Right, right. Yeah which is like such a caretaking like role and is and is very uh intentional and being present in that energy and but also like not wanting to be if it's uncomfortable there and like please tell me what you need.
SPEAKER_01Yeah but then some bitches don't some bitches don't be telling you what you need. It's so annoying. And sometimes I don't have the words either for people so shit. Yeah tough stuff.
SPEAKER_05It's tough stuff.
SPEAKER_06Sitting in the unknown yeah yeah uncomfortable there's there's a a piece to it too that I've been realizing um within within romantic relationships where I actually said this to my past uh partner before we broke before we split where I was like I am not going to be able to like get this across clearly because I'm like very emotionally like wrapped up in this and I care a lot and um and I'm and it's probably not got gonna come out completely right and and I'm asking for a little bit of just like understanding in that but I'm I'm gonna do the best I can and I like prefaced before going into just a fucking say trying to say how I feel. Yeah it's sticky and it's sometimes there aren't words for it.
SPEAKER_08Totally you know totally yeah and it's such a sensitive space right I mean especially I think in romantic in any relationship but especially in romantic relationships if you have a lot of sense of purpose attached to the relationship you know to be able to communicate it communicate something that again yeah like you said it's like really right like something that to really be properly communicated we're just gonna require like a poet sitting and working on it for six months. Right, right. You know and it's like we have like 20 seconds to do that. Um and that you're gonna just you're gonna fuck it up, right? I mean it's just it's part of the deal and being able to ask that is I mean that's a really beautiful strategy to just like preface it that way, right? Even if we all know you know even if somebody knows that that's kind of where we are but like just as a reminder to be like okay I'm gonna try and I'm gonna come in short and like I'm asking for some understanding of that right?
SPEAKER_06Yeah yeah I think it's so important yeah in relationships to just be like I'm gonna miss the mark from time to time.
SPEAKER_01And uh I love when there's grace. Yeah yeah and I love when I can give myself grace.
SPEAKER_06Also it's hard. It's hard it's really hard definitely sick.
SPEAKER_01Well that was that was cool. Yeah thanks thanks for the question Yeah I was I was curious about um I mean I'm non-binary and I'm asking you I don't know lots of people identify lots of there are lots of women and lots of men out there um in addition to all the other options so I don't know. I didn't really know how to phrase the question but yeah I think relationships as a man being in close like trying to find intimacy with other men and be comfortable with it and not have if you don't want it to be s yeah like a friendship. Like it's not sexual. It's just you're friends.
SPEAKER_06But how do you how do you how do you find intimacy when you haven't really been m taught it I guess totally showing them your penis.
SPEAKER_07Emotionally we know you'd never do that Chad never anyway I don't know if either of you have more thoughts on friendship with men or I wish I had more to offer there I would like to have more to offer that's cool I think you had a lot to offer oh thanks yeah here here's my question.
SPEAKER_01Yeah what is your if you could describe your ideal friendship with a man what would that look like I don't know like I've never really thought about that and I think anything's possible that's why they call it dreaming.
SPEAKER_08Right I don't Right I just like don't really have a conception like I've never thought sat and thought about that to like have a conception of what that would look like. Like most of my closer male relationships have been like with mentors which is just a different dynamic right I mean it's not really a friendship. Well I I disagree actually I think it is a friendship.
SPEAKER_01It's a kind of friendship.
SPEAKER_08It's a kind of friendship but it's different in that there's sort of like um not equals right right there's like a you know lowercase P power dynamic relationship that I think in some ways is comfortable for me because it sort of establishes what the expectations are in a way that um I think sometimes is helpful for me with like male friendships where I'm like I'm just like uncomfortable with them in general, right? So it gives some structure to that.
SPEAKER_06The rules have been assigned prior to going in and building more.
SPEAKER_08Right. Yeah. Right. Um and sometimes I I mean I think kind of like you were describing with the structure sometimes I think having those established or sort of prescribed roles can actually be a pretty valuable way to make more space for intimacy.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_08Because there isn't sort of like you're not trying to navigate quite so much of somebody else's reaction right because you kind of already established like this is what we're doing, right? Um working for you and learning from you. Right. So okay so now that gives a framework for the relationship in a way that um I think it is I'm just reflecting on this now but like has made it easier to build those relationships. And so outside of that context I don't I don't really know I mean yeah I don't know I feel like most of my more masculine activities are like a solo thing for me. And I don't know if that's would I choose right like if I had more closer male friends would I still be choosing that? Right? Is that just sort of like the way that it's comfortable for me or is that the way that it has become comfortable for me because it's what I'm used to basically.
SPEAKER_06Right. You know yeah and what would it feel like to like have a male friendship where it's not based around the activity but it's like we're just sharing space like being together. Totally dinner or you know whatever it might be.
SPEAKER_08Right.
SPEAKER_06And it's like sometimes for me like if it's somebody I I don't really know and like I haven't established that yet like it brings up a lot of like anxiety um to just like sit there and share space where then it would be a lot easier for me with um somebody with more feminine energy.
SPEAKER_03Totally interesting Yeah yeah I think I think the creek.
SPEAKER_06The ghost um yeah and I I think for for me with in that it's uh I think it's just a comfortability of like being able to be vulnerable and uh feeling that I can uh not have to be competitive. Yeah because interesting always comes back with competition and men.
SPEAKER_08Yeah. Yeah you mentioned I never thought about I mean I've yeah I've never really thought about that as a broader dynamic. Um but I feel like I feel like you I feel like that's actually like maybe under or uh to me underappreciated. Because like I don't think of myself as being particularly competitive I would say and like even when I played sports as a kid like kind of it was more like self-competition you know it's like I wanted to do well for myself and I wasn't really that concerned about how it related to other people necessarily at least consciously right so the opposite. Interesting um and so but the more you're talking about the more I'm like oh I wonder that actually does feel like that might be a more subconscious factor for me maybe now than it used to be which is kind of interesting. I wouldn't I would expect it to go the trend to go the other direction actually over time. But yeah that's actually that's a really interesting thought that you brought up I kind of think about that a little bit more notice if that's coming up you know in those contexts.
SPEAKER_06Yeah yeah something I'm working on.
SPEAKER_08Yeah cool just I'm curious what it's like to be a man yeah pluses and minuses I would say I don't really have anything to compare it to but do you want to race?
SPEAKER_01Yes actually can't beat me you're dope I'm a tough boy and I'm actually really sad all the time that's basically all of country music summed up in one sentence rattlesnake milk.
SPEAKER_08Rattlesnake milk give them a listen unreal so maybe the last question so this is actually related to something we were talking about earlier about um substance usage and um by the way we need to remember to ask Chad what the Wonder quest is for the next shit we forgot to do that earlier didn't we?
SPEAKER_06Should we do that before we Yeah we can do that real quick okay let's do that now okay sweet so the Wonder Quest I have for you both um is I know that you both aren't sober right per se. Correct um but is to engage in a week of abstaining from substances. Great and then at the end just note what came up for you. And it's okay too if you if you do decide to engage and and like have a drink or smoke you know whatever it is. Yeah yeah that's totally fine. But then just reflect on like what was it like to just have the idea to not and then see what it was like then to do. Yeah and relationship with uh with with sobriety I have a oh no I'm not gonna like where I'm what I'm doing to myself.
SPEAKER_01So I am pretty s I am the average week for me is sober. Um caffeine oh that door. Can we close it? Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah well and it closed on its own respectful ghosts that was very nice. The substance that I have is coffee and it fucks me up and I keep I keep coming back it makes me not want to eat it makes it harder to breathe which is just my usual anxiety but exacerbated those are the worst things. Also it upsets my tummy um so shit this might mean that I'm not having coffee for a week darn that's a good one.
SPEAKER_06I did this to myself shit I think the most important thing with this too is to have compassion around yourself if if you do drink coffee again. Because the idea is not to create shame around it. It's more so to just illuminate something that's like oh I want to stop doing this or maybe or even it could also be like a process addiction too. It doesn't necessarily have to be a substance if you want to process a process addiction. It could be like um I want to stop scrolling my phone like you know the hours of the day or gambling.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_06Sugar is considered process addiction which is interesting. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Okay I'm I'm gonna be taking a week off of coffee and I'm not excited about it and I'm also grateful for for you doing this to me. Yeah so thanks Okay thank you. Alright luck thank you thanks dude it's the worst it's so hard to say no. I went a hundred days without any substance which it's mainly coffee it's coffee and weed those are my most tough ones. Yeah the poor man's speedball yeah yeah it was tough yeah but I my anxiety was lessened and I was like oh I didn't know that was possible. That's cool. Okay.
SPEAKER_08Shocker.
SPEAKER_01What is your what are your thoughts on a week on Twitter?
SPEAKER_08I'm intrigued about I mean yeah I'm interested like I don't really drink that much anymore. You know it's like I can go accidentally several days without having a drink and be like oh like you know and not really notice. Um And so I don't know. I mean I guess like I do have coffee every morning and that feels like I guess it could be interesting to cut that out just from an experiential standpoint, of like how would that be? Right, how would that be different? It doesn't really feel like it has a negative impact on my life, you know. But from an experiential standpoint it could be cool. Or just different, I guess. Um yeah, I don't know. I mean I think it would be interesting it's been a long time since I've gone a week. Well it's been a pretty long time since I've gone a week without drinking at all. So that will probably be intriguing and that's kinda it for me. There's not really a lot of other uh substances that like are regul like a habitual thing or like a regular part of my existence. I smoke tobacco every once in a while, but it's pretty like again, I can forget for a pretty long time. You know, fucking mind. Well, there is a long period for with alcohol where I definitely like could not tell you the last time that I had, you know, had like gone to bed sober. Um you know, and like um that probably wasn't great. But now it's I don't know, it's like a different I mean for me it was more of like a relationship with self aspect, right? That was the problem.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_08Rather than the substance itself, really. It was more like being okay with who I am, right? And that was a tool to let me sort of get away from the feeling of not being okay with who I am. Not that I'm totally there with that necessarily, but enough that drinking isn't really a necessary um way to cope with that. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Um so yeah, I mean it will be I'm I'm interested. I'm interested. Yeah, cool.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, it sounds like you guys both have some good ones to put on, and yeah, it's it's really just looking at the relationship with it that has been so like eye-opening for me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_06And actually what happens is it's not really about kind of like what you were saying, is it's not really necessarily about the substance itself. It's like what do what do I want to feel? Sure. Kind of like at my baseline, and is that possible for me without getting there with you know whatever it might be.
SPEAKER_00I love that.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, I did stop drinking for a while, like maybe like two or three months, maybe something like that at one point. And afterwards, I was like, actually, I just really fucking love alcohol. Like it's and it's not a problem, it doesn't become problematic for me generally. I was like, okay, so because I kind of proved it, or it felt like I was like, okay, I sort of established where I'm at with this, you know? Yeah, yeah. And it's it feels like moderatable, right? Like I can choose it as it adds to my life or subtracts, right? And then I was like, okay, I guess for me at least, like that that's good, that's enough, you know, or like that's kind of like.
SPEAKER_01I like that you took a break and thought about it, because I have heard I was at a party last year, and this guy was chatting with me, and I think he was wearing like a like a koala suit or something, and he was like, I I smoke weed every night, but I'm not a pothead. And I'm like, what? Like, obviously you're a pothead. But he's like, no, I just do it because my roommate does it, so it's just like to be social.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I'm like, okay, sure. You know, because I'm I've been on my journey for a few years with substances and with pot and with coffee mainly. Everything else, whatever. But um I think a lot of folks will say, I I don't have a problem. If I if I needed if I wanted to stop, I could easily. And but then they don't actually do it.
SPEAKER_08But they don't know.
SPEAKER_01They don't actually do it. So you took a break and you thought about it and you pushed yourself, right? To to say no for two or three months, right?
SPEAKER_08Yeah. It was a little bit less um antagonistic than that. I was for my framing.
SPEAKER_01You didn't push yourself to say no. Okay.
SPEAKER_08That wasn't my experience with it, really. It was more like I was like, I want like I'm I started noticing that it was a it was a bit more habitual for me, that I was like, oh, it's the time of the day where I open a beer, right? Rather than like, oh, I want to feel more inebriated, right? Or like, oh, I want to drink a beer because I like it, you know, whatever. It was just like, oh, this is the time of day when I do that, and so I'm going to do it.
SPEAKER_01That was me in 420.
SPEAKER_08Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Pretty much every day. I'm like, cool. Or even coffee in the morning. I would just reach for coffee even if I didn't want it, just because it was the morning. Yeah. And I'm like, I don't like this. I don't like these being habits.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah. I'm still tethered to like so many different vices, and that's just how I am. You know, like I got rid of the alcohol, I got rid of the drugs, and then it was like Reese's cups.
SPEAKER_00That was like Yeah.
SPEAKER_06That was how I survived nights was like tons of Kirkland brand sparkling water and uh the super king-sized Reese's cups.
SPEAKER_01Wait, nights, just every night?
SPEAKER_06Evenings, yeah. Evenings were like the hardest for me in in early recovery and like just right when I was trying to get sober. Um, because it it's the habit. You know, it's like, okay, this time of day hits, this is what I do.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Um, yeah. And I so badly crave this freedom. Um and what I've had to do is kind of like attach myself to other things, and for me, it's like caffeine, sugar, nicotine, those kinds of things. Yeah. And yeah, I still got a lot of work to do.
SPEAKER_01I'm, you know, but yeah, it's I think for me it'll be a lifelong conversation with myself.
SPEAKER_06So this week I'll I'll join you guys in in the quest. Okay. And I will uh avoid sugar.
SPEAKER_00Okay, welcome.
SPEAKER_06Dude, that is a hard have you done that before? I have I did it for three weeks. Wow. I did it for three weeks. I meant to do it for a month, and then uh I had a massive relapse with a pint of Ben and Jerry's. Yikes. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Okay, welcome. Welcome to the wonderful. I'm in the middle of the minute with y'all.
SPEAKER_08Yeah.
SPEAKER_01This segues into our last uh topic.
SPEAKER_08Oh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so we I I love that you're just handling all the paperwork. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_08So welcome. Um we talked about this a little bit earlier about kind of like sobriety, what that means for different people, and this idea of kind of manage like managing, I guess, like the level of sobriety, right, with different things and what is necessary and what's not. And so I'm sort of curious, um, as the resident sober king, how do you think about like what substances can be occasional or never or you know, substituted for other things in a way that's improving your life in some fashion, but like especially in that kind of like the nebulous of sometimes? I know that I'm really curious about.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I um I think it all just depends on the person and and and what their relationship is to drugs and or whatever whatever you know type of substance you want to take. Um I I I think it really is important to look at where have you struggled and what has been the like the consistent piece that's been coming through where it's like I have low self-worth and I don't feel comfortable in my skin, and in social settings I struggle. And so I need substances to help me get there. Right? If you can start to build up more of that like self-worth, you start to feel more comfortable in s in so in social settings sober, and then you start to like integrate it back and you start to feel the same things come come in and into play, then it's like, all right, my substances might not be for you. Um I know for myself I just uh I flirt with the idea of psychedelics all the time because it's the they can be such you know healing plant medicine. My mom goes on these like ayahuasca MDMA things, mushrooms. My mom's out here doing more drugs than I was in my prime. It's and she's 70 years old.
SPEAKER_01That's tricky because the medicinal aspect It is medicine. Well, it is, I know, but having a substance like having the potential to have some healing happen, but you're also fucked up, or doing a substance that fucks you up and doesn't heal you.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01So it's kind of like, oh, it's kinda does it feel like a loophole, like, well, it's mushrooms, they're medicinal.
SPEAKER_06Mm-hmm. Yeah, and and that's where I have to be careful because that's where I I want to go into. And and it can be tricky because both can be true where it's like I want to have a spiritual experience and I want to um expand. Expand. Yeah. Yeah, and and they've been so huge in my s in my story of psychedelics and and uh just like understanding just this, you know, the cosmic conscious and understanding of other people. And what I figured that I wanted was actually to have that sober because after the drugs wear off, I go back to step one because I haven't done any of the legwork getting up to that point. And so I go from having, you know, no spiritual practice, no mindfulness, um, to ten and eleven and like seeing all these things and this, you know, so profound, so much love, and then I get put right back at the beginning. Um and it was tricky, and then it felt like I had to keep doing it. Sure, right. Um so I think it's just really important I ca harm reduction is something that I I also believe in, which is you know, you take somebody who has been smoking every single day, uh, will use weed, you know, for their entire lives. Okay, let's just have it where you smoke three times, four times a week, right? And you you have a time where you do it so that it doesn't interfere with other responsibilities. Um and then you get to like have that time to relax, and then you actually get to engage in it. If the time that you're spending not doing it, because addiction isn't actually doing the substance, it's the time that you're spending thinking about acquiring or thinking about doing it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_06That is where it becomes classified as an addiction. And if you can start to have some awareness on that, and typically the way that it starts to happen is when you pull it away a little bit, you get some willingness and you start looking at pulling it away a little, and then you get to see my mind is preoccupied nearly all the time with this of what how can I situate my day, organize my day so that I can, you know, chase that next high. Um and so sometimes that works where you you get to like build up um you know some tolerance and people are showing up for things in between, um, you know, smoking uh in this example, um, and it can work really well, and then other times the obsession is too much, and then ultimately you start slipping. Um and so that's that's a really easy way to be like, okay, there's there's more here at play than just recreational use. I do this at night um because it's it's taken over your thoughts. And even like, you know, we'll have guys be like, I'm not an addict, I'm not an addict, and and they really believe that, but the only thing they cannot do to like and you know and get kicked out of our program is to drink, and then they do it. It's like, hey, you had this one thing that you couldn't do. You don't recognize and yeah, that and it's all about understanding your own self-efficacy. Because if if you're an addict, it's it's distorted.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. So I you know, there's like a lot of friends that I have that are California sober, um, and but they used to be heroin, you know, users, um, or fentanyl. And fuck yeah. So yeah, yeah, as much or weed as you fucking want, you know, and deal with that when the time comes if that's something that you want to do.
SPEAKER_01As you can.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, as you can. Um, but ultimately life is very challenging. And we it's it's natural for us to want to seek some sort of relief. Um and I it can feel almost like too much to just completely raw dog life. It's a big ask. It's a big ask. I like I I just recently got back into nicotine because I was on this river trip with people doing so many psychedelics, and I was I felt like I was missing out so bad. Sure, dude. And I was like, and I had been a you know big cigarette smoker and jewel, you know, everything um for so long, and I was like, I I want a vice again. Sure, sure, sure. But that's just also me. I am you know, I I am addicted to anything that gives you any sort of chemical release. Um, and that's just you know, I'm very aware of it.
SPEAKER_01But you know that about yourself. Very aware you're not in denial.
SPEAKER_06No, I made a very real decision. I was like, when I take one of these, I will be buying them for a while and it's gonna be a big process to stop. So yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_06But I was like, I just need some relief.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, yeah. Right. And it's like this is the consequences of this are fairly manageable.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, way better than me getting back into drugs. Right.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_06Right. Way better. So yeah, uh, and and ultimately it's like keep people around you that keep you honest um and that aren't afraid to tell them tell you what they're what they're observing. Um because that will be great as well. We're it's it's easy for us to lie to ourselves and to just justify. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like an accountability buddy.
SPEAKER_06Accountability buddy, yeah, yeah. And if you see a friend that's struggling um and you're just not sure, you know, propose the question to them in like a really like soft and just curious way of like, hey, I've just been noticing you spending more time doing this and not hanging out as much. Like, what's going on?
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_06You know, and sometimes people get defensive and not, but sometimes just even that question can can kind of plant plant a seed if they really are struggling. Because addiction is so prevalent with within, you know, it touches almost all of us in some one way or another.
SPEAKER_01There's so many flavors.
SPEAKER_06So many flavors. Yeah. Definitely.
SPEAKER_01I'm dating someone who's sober, and I was already dabbling in sobriety before we started dating. Um, but I learned that he I thought that he hadn't drank alcohol for two years, but it's actually almost four years. And I was really surprised by that and really, really impressed. And so I'm like, okay, when did I drink alcohol last? And it I don't like alcohol, it makes me feel bad, and so it's not a problem for me. Uh but I asked myself, when did I have it last? And it was when it was here. I had a digestive, digestive. After Thanksgiving or Christmas?
SPEAKER_08Which one was it? Uh I think that was Thanksgiving probably. It was like you and me and Lindsay and Sasha and uh um Lauren. Right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I had one sip, I think. Yeah, yeah. And no big deal, but I'm like, okay, so that's the timestamp, and I've never tried to extend that, but I'm like, how long can I do this? And so I'm doing that. But and so I think that's I think that's really cool.
SPEAKER_06Um might as well, you know, do it as long as it feels good.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. It feels I mean, I'm not I'm not missing out on anything. I don't fucking I don't even fucking like it. And it's cool because my friends don't even offer me alcohol. They haven't for years because they already know I'm gonna be like, no, I'm not I'm not into it. If it's a joint, that's gonna be tough for me and I'm gonna wrestle with it. Because I crave it.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. I've never gotten offered more free drugs in my life than when I got sober. Are you serious? Not kidding. It's so weird. It's such a like universal challenge. Oh. So random will be next to me asking if I want to hit an acid.
SPEAKER_01Whoa.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh-huh. That's a big deal.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. But no. It's just in it's gotten easier.
SPEAKER_01You have to constantly say no. It's like when you enforce when you ha when you set a boundary with someone, you have to it's not just a one-time deal, you have to keep saying no.
SPEAKER_06I keep saying no. Over and over.
SPEAKER_01So you uh you'd have to keep doing that.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. And I just do it in a way where it's like, I'll give them like a big like high-five hug. I'm like, dude, that is so sweet, but no, I'm good. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06Because it's like it's sweet. The sharing aspect. That was my favorite part of it.
SPEAKER_01It's nice to nice to trip with your with people. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Sure would have been a hell of a time, honestly.
SPEAKER_01Thanks, Larry.
SPEAKER_06It would have gone weird.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Definitely.
SPEAKER_01Um that might be our last question, but I was wondering, does it get easier to say no?
SPEAKER_06It gets so much easier. It's it's insane. So like the obsession for me has like pretty much subsided.
SPEAKER_07Oh. Right.
SPEAKER_06Like, I don't think about doing drugs or drinking really like anymore. Like it doesn't like preoccupy my time. It's just something that I'm like, I've locked into, and um there's so much more. Like honestly, the the beginning of it, which is so uh ironic, is is literally just stopping drinking, which I thought for me was like the end goal when I was starting it. And what has unfolded after that was actually the real journey for myself, which is finding comfortability in myself, finding love for myself. All of these things that I was numbing and numbing and numbing and numbing. I'm now able to do the work because I have cleared all of that just wreckage, you know, between my spiritual connection and myself. Um and so the real work is is now. I'm in the real work now.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_06Which is, you know, much more existential and beautiful and big and you know, um exciting because I'm I'm trying to find um, you know, just like my way and value in in this world and you know, be a part of. Um so it's it's amazing. And I just like I so hope that you know the people that I work with who are looking to get sober, anybody who's listening trying to get sober is able to find because it I it I promise you it comes, that freedom from the obsession.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_06And and you know, begin the rest of your life.
SPEAKER_01Find some strength that will carry you through it.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_08I think that's an amazing place to end. Do you have a closing quote for us? Uh yes.
SPEAKER_06Um so the quote uh the quote is so it's like not a funny quote, but the person that I heard say it is hilarious, and I'll show you guys the video after. But um the quote is Tough times never last. Only tough people last.
SPEAKER_00Say it again.
SPEAKER_06Tough times never last. Only tough people last.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.
SPEAKER_06Thank you guys. This was so much fun. Oh, I'm so glad. Thanks for being on.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there's a lot more I want to talk to you about.
SPEAKER_06Like we've got an eternity.
SPEAKER_01We do, as far as we know.
SPEAKER_06As far as we know.
SPEAKER_01All right.
SPEAKER_06I think this is such a great idea for a podcast.
SPEAKER_00Oh, thanks. Well, thanks.
SPEAKER_06The space is so amazing, and I wish everybody could just see the the feeling of the room and and the space that we're at. It's it's fantastic. So thank you all. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01I just uh forgot to take a photo of you while we were. Yeah, there we go.
SPEAKER_08We're still recording. It's a perfect time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_08All right. Well, thanks for listening. Um send us to your friends, rate it on the podcast platforms. Um if you have thoughts or questions, you can email us. We have an email now. Wow at wonder.media.
SPEAKER_01And and that's w n d e rate.media. Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_08All right. We'll be back next month with another dose of wonder.
SPEAKER_01Bye.
