SPEAKER_03 0:00

Um, I was a lifeguard, uh, which is a fun fact because I can't really swim. Are you serious? I did.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

I've been just on like a generational level tear finding amazing books at the thrift store in like the last like couple weeks.

SPEAKER_04 0:21

I'm obsessed with lying on the floor.

SPEAKER_03 0:23

Lay on the ground and sprawl. And it is there's so much childlike wonder in that feeling, and it's really lovely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 0:31

Laying in bed next to an open window, getting kissed by the sun and hearing birds squawk and feeling the crisp breeze on my skin.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

Wait, so you can't swim? I mean, I say that. Yeah, I say that. Uh be prepared to sink and feel in.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

There are no let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

I would like to watch the parent trap next.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Oh well, I haven't watched that in a million years.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

I do like that movie.

SPEAKER_03 1:09

You're talking about the original or the Lindsay Loho. Lohoho There's another one. That's a remake of the original that was made in like the 70s? Yeah, or the late 60s.

SPEAKER_04 1:22

60s, maybe, yeah. With whom's?

SPEAKER_03 1:25

Good question.

SPEAKER_04 1:26

Don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

I think doesn't it have isn't the child actor who plays the main character like both of the twins, I think? And it's like cut together in this way that like they split the film in half? I'm pretty sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

In the first one?

SPEAKER_01 1:41

No, in yes, in the original.

SPEAKER_03 1:43

I think probably.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

I think that I think so.

SPEAKER_03 1:47

I don't know for sure. Jin Jin? I'm good.

SPEAKER_04 1:49

Thank you. Wolf?

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Oh, please. Wow. Actually, chewing is gonna be terrible for this. I don't want them.

SPEAKER_04 1:54

I know, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Who thought of that?

SPEAKER_03 1:58

Uh I would like to rewatch the Titanic. Oh.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:03

I could see do I could see it. That was my favorite movie as a child.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Yeah, okay, 1961. Yeah, Haley Mills is both of the two teenage twins.

SPEAKER_03 2:13

Well, isn't that true for Lindsay Lohans, too?

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Is it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:15

Yeah, she doesn't have a twin. Come on, Walt. She played both of them.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Okay, so they're all that way.

SPEAKER_03 2:20

Yeah. Have you never seen Parent Trap?

SPEAKER_01 2:23

I don't think I've seen the new one.

SPEAKER_03 2:25

Oh, it's great. I love uh what's her name, the nanny. Because she's like a nice mom figure. Yeah, but she's just is it Jessie?

SPEAKER_02 2:33

I think so.

SPEAKER_03 2:34

And she's just like so perfectly undone, but like she looks like she tried hard, but she didn't. And she's got like a denim shirt like hanging off of her shoulder and her hair's a little unkempt, and she's like, here's a grilled cheese. And I'm like, gay awakening, hello.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

I tried, I went to a party the other night and I tried to do that. Like, oh, I didn't even know I was uh at a party. I just woke up, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:59

It took a long time and the result wasn't very it's it's an unfortunate thing when you learn that looking unkempt and good is a talent and it's not you didn't just wake up like that.

SPEAKER_02 3:11

People pay good money.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Uh I think there are a very small subset of people who are just very good looking. That yeah, they just actually roll out of bed looking pretty much.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

I also think it's all subject to what you find attractive. It's different for everyone. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_02 3:28

And and sea salt spray in your hair. Oh. Need some of that. Or some curl cream.

SPEAKER_03 3:35

It'll scrunch. Yeah. I do that sometimes when I don't want to blow dry my hair because I could not be bothered.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

It's the worst thing in the world. You have a lot of work. New curl products in your bathroom.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Um just wanted to congratulate you. Thank you. Um I don't think there's only one.

SPEAKER_02 3:51

Nope.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

There's like three on the there's three products, but only one of them is new. One of them came from your house.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

Oh, ride, ride, ride, ride.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

The other one that's been there for a long time.

SPEAKER_03 4:04

Why do you have the giggles? I don't know. Just listening to you guys phantars funny. You hear my like nose breath in the microphone.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

That's the thing with hair products. Like, you just have to try so many things to find the ones that work well.

SPEAKER_03 4:20

That's what I hate about buying stuff to go back to your phobia effect. I hate making the wrong decision on a product I've been contemplating. Like, I will think about something for so long. I'm like, which one is the right one? It's like same, same. It's like a life or death situation. It's like if if it's okay, it's okay if it's the wrong one, I could go back to your own.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

And then I just never make the decision. Right. It's like what's the right airplane? And I spend all this time.

SPEAKER_03 4:44

Yeah. I can't. It's like they're all gonna function pretty close to the same.

SPEAKER_02 4:49

I'm I've been doing that with a stainless steel pan for months. And I'm I do think I will never figure it out.

SPEAKER_03 4:56

I've heard stainless steel is hard to cook with, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 4:59

I don't know. I just know that it's better for your health than like nonstick.

SPEAKER_03 5:03

I think there's just more to the process of prep for cooking with it.

SPEAKER_02 5:07

Like you heated it up?

SPEAKER_03 5:08

Well, yeah, but it has to be like a certain temperature and you have to still water. Yeah, and you have to like actually follow the instructions for cooking rather than just like putting the hot shit in the pan that's not hot yet.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

You have to like following instructions?

SPEAKER_03 5:23

Well, like you're just supposed to follow the the rules of how you use it, right? Oh, you don't throw the frozen thing in the bottom.

SPEAKER_02 5:30

Because it's because it'll stick onto the pan. Yes. It will burn it. I can see that. I can see that. I could be totally off base, but I'm pretty sure that stainless steel isn't.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

You're basically right.

SPEAKER_02 5:41

It's just different than cooking on a nonstick where everything's flying around. Right.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

I just n I never thought of it as like, oh, you have to follow the rules with it. In my head, I'm like, oh, you just have to just like you just cook it the right way. Like it's just not that complicated. You know, it's like a way that the things work, you know?

SPEAKER_03 5:55

And like it's a rule for the pan.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Wow, I never thought about it that way.

SPEAKER_03 5:59

Life is just rules for the panel.

SPEAKER_02 6:00

And then there's also like um s things that are labeled stainless steel pans that are actually not stainless steel. Like, remember when I got that really cheap one, and you're like, that's not even legit. The right one will cost you more like 60 or more dollars.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Oh, it's not that it wasn't stainless steel.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

It's just like there are stainless steel is not a it has some downsides from a pan material standpoint. It's not that conductive of heat. So it's not good at spreading heat out. You know, that's why aluminum, a lot of pans are aluminum, because they conduct the heat around the whole surface like really well. Or cast iron does a pretty okay job. Stainless steel does a poor job of conducting heat. And so a good stainless steel pan has like a copper or aluminum core in the inside.

unknown 6:50

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

So it's like sandwich between stainless steel on the bottom, stainless steel on the top, and inside is like a copper or aluminum core that helps distribute the heat.

SPEAKER_02 6:59

Whoa thank you.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

And without that, it's kind of hard to use.

SPEAKER_02 7:02

Thanks for teaching me that. Noted. Did you do your PT PhD in that?

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Yeah, I'm a pan pantologist.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

Pantologist. So Hannah. Yes. You're a little gay. Just a little. So tell us uh about your relationship to queerness.

SPEAKER_03 7:21

Yeah. Um today. It's it's been a long journey, as I'm sure that's true for a lot of people in discovering their queerness. I think that it takes time. Um and it it was something I'd always wondered about myself, but I wasn't really sure, and it wasn't something I ever really entertained for a long time. Um and this is kind of a long convoluted story, so I hope you've got your straps ready. So ready. I'm multiple straps. Okay. Temporary and long term. Yeah. Um, so I'm divorced, um, was with my ex for eight years. We were married for five. Um, and throughout our entire relationship, I was kind of quietly wrestling with this feeling um that I thought I was attracted to women, but I also um wasn't sure because of at the time not knowing my ADHD. I think so much of my life I was conforming to what I saw around me. And so when I was trying to determine if it was something I was attracted to, it was like, is this attraction or is it admiration? Like, do I just want to be friends with you? Do I just love the way that you dress, or do I actually like you? Right. Yeah. Thank you for the clarification. Yeah, exactly. Um and so it was really hard to untangle that in being in not only a long-term relationship, but something I'd committed to. Yeah. Like ultimately the goal is like forever, right? However long that is. Um and I ended up meeting a coworker um who is a woman that kind of became the catalyst for unraveling that. Um she was the first person that I couldn't like explain away or be like, oh, like I just, like I said, like the way she dresses, or I just think she's a cool person. I like her personality. It was kind of like this unexplainable draw. Wow. Um, and I had already been struggling because our relationship was pretty tumultuous over the course of the eight years, anyway, um, with wanting to leave my marriage and not really knowing how to do that. Like I had never really been on my own. We got married at 21. Um, and so it was really scary. And I was I was too scared of the unknowns. Like I was all the little things, even logistically. It's like paperwork, the dogs, the bills. Like, what do what do I do if I even take that leap? Um, so to start off this navigating this, I was trying to be as transparent with him as possible. Um, and I had told him about her, and I was like, hey, like I don't know what this means, but there is something inside of me that is really drawn to this right now, and I I don't know how to navigate that by myself because we are in a partnership and I don't want to leave you on the outside of it. Um, and he was incredibly supportive of me at the time. Wow, very encouraging. It was actually encouraging of me to like get closer to her and connect with her and like be physical with her if that's something that I felt like I needed. Um and all he asked for was honesty from me. Um and long story short, things happen. Again, sorry, mom, if you're listening. Um she's heard it all. She has. Um, I was honest with him. Um, and we had kind of had like an unspoken but spoken openness to our relationship. Like he had navigated things on his own, um, even if it was kind of unknowing, unbeknownst to me. Um, but his reaction was devastating for me. It was when I was honest with him about what happened um in my connection with her, he was really unkind about it.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

Oh no, he suddenly was not supportive.

SPEAKER_03 11:34

Well, yeah, it was very telling and clarifying for my marriage. It was like you're telling me first and foremost that this is fine, you're encouraging me. And now that I'm doing that and exploring it, and you know, I'm at the time maybe 24, 25, I don't know how old I was. I'm like, this is the time in my life when I'm I need to be discovering these things, and you're supportive, and that's great. And now you're telling me that you're pissed off and upset with me because I did the thing that you said was okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:02

Um so ultimately that is what led to the ending of my marriage. It was kind of like at this point, like I need to be on my own to discover what this means for me, and all of the other things that had compiled over the years, it was kind of just like the straw that broke, right? It was like that's enough, and I need to get out of here. Um, and that's not to like villainize him at all. You know, we're we were both really young, um, and just trying to figure things out. And there are things that I would have changed in this dynamic too. Um, looking back on it, there are things I've done or said that I'm not super proud of, but um all that to say, uh, it did confirm my attraction to women. And at the time, I was under the assumption or thinking that I was bisexual. Um her and I dated for a few months, um, and things didn't really work out for us, but her and I are still really close friends today. Um and I honestly consider her one of the most pivotal people in my life. Um I think without her, I would still be a scared girl living in a shell of myself. Um and I I feel like I owe her my life. Like I would not be where I am today if it weren't for even if it was just very brief, like she changed me in so many ways that I'll I will forever be indebted to her for that. Um so after all of that, her and I broke up um and I then started dating another man. And so that was really challenging. Um, and currently dating a man. Um and I struggled a lot in that relationship with guilt because I felt like I blew up my marriage only to end up back with another man in another heterosexual relationship. And I'm like, I don't understand why I would have done that if if I thought I was lesbian or bisexual, like why why would I do that to just end up right back where I was? Um and my ex was we were still in communication because you know there were dogs involved, and there's still, you know, our divorce took I think about eight months to be finalized. So we were still in communication relatively frequently. Um and he was incredibly vocal about his anger about that.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

It's like we split up because so confusing.

SPEAKER_03 14:29

Yeah, because you thought you wanted to be with women and now you're dating a man, and unfortunately, he was like kind of friendship adjacent, so it was like this again kind of tumultuous, uneven ground we were trying to navigate. Um and there's this like feeling that I had, and I think a lot of bisexual women can probably attest to this, where it's like you're not doing gay right when you're when you're dating someone of the opposite sex. Yeah um, and so I was really struggling with that. Um and a straight passing relationship. Exactly. Yeah. I was like, I I I fucked up, like I don't know what I'm doing. This is this is not where I wanted to be or what the outcome of this was supposed to be, or what I thought it was supposed to be. Um, but since then I've you know I've done a lot of reflection and understanding the spectrum of being queer. I would now say that I most resonate with being pansexual. So it makes a lot of sense for my story looking back. I'm like my attraction starts with that personality and with that connection. And it's it's not about what you look like on the outside or what parts you have or how you identify. It has nothing to do with my attraction to you as a person. Um and I've also learned that I'm like really into the androgynous thing, so I think that was why I was so drawn to her, is because it was like you are a woman, but you don't always present super feminine. I love it. So I'm like, I love the duality of the two. Um and I think it, you know, it took a a lot and it took a while to get where I am now, but I finally feel like I actually know myself, and I'm really proud of her for having the courage to do the hard thing and leave that marriage because it's the best thing I ever did. Congratulations. Thank you. Take care of yourself. Thank you. And I I mean, I have a lot of love for him. Um you know, he's obviously was a big part of my life and my young life, um, and things ultimately didn't work out, but I wish him the best too, and can only hope that he finds that for himself too, whatever that means. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:43

That's been a long journey. Thank you so much for sharing that. I I was also dating someone in a long-term relationship, and this was when I needed to explore my own queerness. And so I I went and I did my thing real quick, and then we continued dating. And then I was like, oh shoot, I'm still kind of gay. And there wasn't any space for it, and so we broke up and then I got to explore what I needed to explore. And then um we got back in touch again, and he's like, So are you dating anyone? I'm guessing you're with a woman, and I'm like, Oh, I'm with a guy, and he's like, Well like he didn't understand that. Yeah, like oh, I thought you had to pick a lane.

SPEAKER_03 17:26

Right, and now you're not yeah, no, you're not at it anymore. And I think that that's what my ex was struggling with a lot. And I mean, understandably so. Um I think that there's a lot of misrepresentation of being queer, or there's just not representation of it at all, and of being bi. And or like, and yeah, and what the spectrum looks like. Like there's there's so many places you could fall. And I think you know, he's a very traditional masculine man. Um, and in hearing that, it's like you're straight, you're gay, or you're bisexual, and that's kind of the lanes that you fall in. And I think because it ended with me wanting to explore the women part of that, it was like, okay, so you're only gonna be with women now. Yeah, you're a lesbian. Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:09

And that's the only option.

SPEAKER_03 18:10

Yeah, and so he he struggled with that a lot. Um but I I can only hope that he sees it now as what it is, right? It was never like intended to hurt him or like pull the you know, cloth over his eyes and like just get out of swindling him. Right. Yeah. Um, you know, there's always two truths to every story and two perspectives. So I I don't know how he feels about it now, but um, yeah, I wish him all the best. He's happily married, I assume. Um again and has a little son and you know, cheering him on from the sidelines. But so sweet. Do it far away. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:54

Yeah. Um, I'm also pan and I'm also in a what could be perceived as a straight passing relationship. And I in the past had my qualms with that because I didn't want people to misunderstand me. But for some reason, it's like I'm totally like more I I'd say overall I'm pretty content with like the assumptions. I'm not feeling like I need to control the narrative or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 19:28

Like you're not worried about what other people's opinions are of it.

SPEAKER_02 19:30

I mean, I I love telling people I'm gay, I'm queer, I'm pan, I'm non-binary, I'm you're proud of it. I'm yeah, as you should be. Here are some of my flavors or whatever. Yeah. I love that. But um, yeah, does it I mean does it are you comfortable being in a straight passing relationship? Yeah. Um right now.

SPEAKER_03 19:51

Yeah, I honestly haven't really thought about it much since I kind of had this revelation where it was like it's personality and connection based. It's not about anything else for me. Um so there's no part of me now that really has that worry or feels uncomfortable in it. Um and I think I still get that duality in the relationship that I'm in right now because he gives a lot of the masculine parts where I want the masculinity, but I can also like take him shopping and he's gonna compliment my outfit. And it's not just gonna be like, oh, you look so hot. It's gonna be personal. He's like, oh my god, you look beautiful, look at your hair, you did all the you know, yeah, yeah. It's very it's again, it's that androgynous duality that like I he's probably just love it so much, and it's a perfect balance for me.

SPEAKER_02 20:41

So I love androgyny. I do. I'm very attracted to people who are doing that.

SPEAKER_03 20:48

Well, and I find that I'm most attractive to or attracted to a uh what is presumably a someone that identifies as female that dresses masculine or the opposite, someone that is masculine presenting but is painting their nails and has like frosted tips or like eyeliner.

SPEAKER_02 21:08

I'm like, oh my god, you're stunning. Like wolf in his fucking buns last week.

SPEAKER_03 21:12

Yeah. It's fabulous. I love it. Like the one of the perfect examples for me is like uh Machine Gun Kelly.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

Haven't seen it.

SPEAKER_03 21:22

Uh he's uh what I assume is a very straight white male, but he's Oh wait, is that a human or is it a movie?

SPEAKER_02 21:30

It's a person.

SPEAKER_03 21:31

He was married to I think they're still m still married? I don't know, Megan Fox for a while. Um but like tall, lanky, skinny dude, but he's covered in tattoos and always has his fingernails painted, and sometimes he wears eyeliner. It's like a Harry Styles kind of like you, you know, you're very masculine, but you've got your like buttons all the way down to your belly button and you're shown a little nip or something, and it's very like it's like not afraid to show that other side of yourself. So beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 21:58

Kind of taboo sometimes. And would be perceived as gay for fuckers who exactly fucking see the world that way.

SPEAKER_03 22:06

And I think the confidence in expressing that part of yourself, the masculine or feminine, is so beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 22:12

And it's also like it it should be I say this a lot about queerness, but it it it's so normal. It should be mundane. I agree. It shouldn't stand out.

SPEAKER_03 22:23

No. But I totally agree.

SPEAKER_02 22:25

I'm like I am thirsting for it so much and I love it so much when I find it. So I'm always like, yes.

SPEAKER_03 22:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:33

You're being you. That's awesome. And you the you that you are today can be different than the you you are tomorrow. Yeah. Because that's how that's that's how being human is so multifaceted. Yeah. And there's a lot of there, I mean I got a lot of space for for people to be themselves. I just wish it was more uh I wish more people had more space for more parts of their friends and family. Yeah. And of them their selves.

SPEAKER_03 22:59

Yeah. Well, I think a lot of at least my perception of that is that people are often uncomfortable with those parts of themselves, which is why they're not open to other people expressing it. Yeah, of course, of course. Right? Yeah. Uh I think we see that a lot. So I mean it's unfortunate.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

I had a reaction, like just kind of like a visceral reaction several years ago. I was with I was hanging out with a group of people, and one of them is Afab. So that means assigned female at birth. And they or she had some chest hair. And I had never seen that on someone who had a vagina. And I kind of like I I was really surprised, like, in a negative way. Now looking back, I don't think in the moment I realized that, but I think I was like you were put off by it. I was like, what the fuck am I looking at?

SPEAKER_01 23:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:56

And now I'm like, dude, why why am I being so rigid in my or why was I being so rigid? I think now I'd I wouldn't have that reaction. Yeah. Because I intentionally surround myself with people who are like just I don't know. Well it's in the allowing more of their facets out.

SPEAKER_03 24:17

Yeah. And then you have to give yourself grace too in in that, in not knowing. And even taking the time to understand it and be appreciative of it.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

And reflect it and be like, oh yeah. So there's I mean, that could have been homophobia. Maybe it was. But but there's but gender isn't the only thing that's a spectrum. Sex apparently is also a spectrum. Like being intersex, being male, being female, there are a lot of data points in between those. Yeah. Like apparently, I read I listened to this podcast a long time ago. Apparently, um PCOS has connections to being to intersex. Have you ever heard of that?

SPEAKER_03 24:55

I feel like I have, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:56

Which is so cool. And also the stigma around that. Like so many people, if that's true, so many people have PCOS that might you know have some like vagueness in their sex, in their biological sex. And I just think that that would make unfortunately make a lot of people feel uncomfortable. Yeah. Or be in denial and be like, there's only two options. Like there aren't.

SPEAKER_03 25:22

Yeah. I really don't understand the rigidity behind that. I don't know why we have to stick to that narrative.

unknown 25:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

Well, and even even though I'm a flight uh homo myself, like I still have homophobia in some in some of my corners, and when I find that, I'm always horrified and I'm always like hurt for myself and for the person I'm yeah, you know, judging or whatever.

SPEAKER_05 25:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

But then I feel like that part just needs some like compassion and some healing, and then for sure. I'm like, like, no wonder I thought this. I, you know, I consume this kind of media, or I was told this by my parents, or like I I of course I grew up very Christian and you know, there was there were all there was all that rigidity. Yeah. Um question for you. You're attracted to androgyny. Is there anything about yourself that you like your own maybe your own androgyny? Is there anything that you uh have been interested in trying to like in my expression?

SPEAKER_03 26:25

In your yeah, in your gender expression? Um not so much. Um I I did a little bit when I was um that first relationship with a woman outside of my marriage. I kind of took on the more masculine role in the dynamic, uh, which was different for me. Um and I had a lot of fun with that. And it wasn't masculine to an extreme. It was like, I'm gonna wear like a striped polo and watch out. Yeah, I might have it, you know, buttoned down a little bit far, and I might like, I don't know, just in ways of expressing in my clothes, I guess, was a little bit more masculine. Um, and I took kind of the more masculine dynamic um intimately too, which was different for me, and I think that's what was exciting about it.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_03 27:17

Um, because it was like this unterrited like uncharted territory and I was like, let's see what happens. Yeah, try it on, maybe take it off. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Um, but I feel pretty confident now in in my self-expression. I don't know that there's any change I would make on the more masculine side of things. Um I don't know that anything comes to mind right now, but that's not to say that might not change in the future, but yeah, yeah. How about you?

SPEAKER_01 27:48

Yeah, I think about that a lot. Um I mean that's a bit that's the main reason I started growing my hair long again was like I was like, I need to have a like I need to alter the masculine feminine balance of my expression. Um because I I feel like for me it's like my body shape and type is like pretty intensely masculine, you know, it's like I'm pretty tall, I've got wide shoulders, like, and there's no like there's no getting away from that. You know what I mean? It's not like it's like kind of neutral and you kind of push it a little bit one way or a little bit the other way, like it's pretty distinct, or I see it that way. Um, and so sometimes I feel like it can be challenging to figure out like what are good ways, or like how can I have a diff like how can I have more femininity in the way that I express?

SPEAKER_02 28:38

Um I noticed you've been tying the bottoms of your shirts in the front, like when you have a button up, it's unbuttoned and then you tie the bottoms together. You've been doing that.

SPEAKER_00 28:49

I have not been doing that.

SPEAKER_03 28:52

I've noticed a lot. I feel like I've also noticed a scarf moment.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

Uh okay, the scarf moment is good. Yes. No, but like you're You mean it's tucked in and unbuttoned. It's not tied, it's never been tied. That's not happening.

SPEAKER_02 29:05

Might be, might be. It they have been joined together in the world. Yeah, so it's totally it's like tucked in.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

It's tucked in and then unbuttoned all the way down with like a t-shirt underneath.

SPEAKER_02 29:16

Okay, thank you for your time. And that feels um Does that feel feminine to you?

SPEAKER_01 29:22

Yeah. Interesting. I don't perceive it that way at all.

SPEAKER_03 29:25

Interesting. I don't know that I've noticed it, but maybe now I will. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

Keep an eye out.

SPEAKER_02 29:29

I will keep an eye out for that. Um I think that anything well, I want to hear more of your thoughts. You said you've been thinking about it a lot.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

Yeah, no, that's it. I mean, it's like I think it's challeng it's it. Like from a clothing standpoint, there's not a lot. I've been wearing a little bit more jewelry too, which feels it can be in some ways feminine, you know, depending on what it is. Although a lot of my jewelry is pretty masculine.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

I mean, your blinged out fucking fake crystal watch.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

That's true. That was very feminine. That was very fun to wear, actually. Yeah. The thing was great. It was like covered in rhinestones.

SPEAKER_02 29:59

Hell yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

So watch from a yard sale. Um yeah, and I mean in some way, it's a gift and a curse, right? Because in some ways it means I actually have a lot, I could I have a in certain areas I have a lot of latitude to push really or like to add very feminine elements without it feeling like the whole aesthetic is really feminine. Um that's a benefit of like the sort of what feels like the kind of like central place being quite masculine. Um but then the downside is like it's it feels like there's less options too to explore that.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

Two thoughts. Yeah. First of all, anything and anyone is technically androgynous.

SPEAKER_05 30:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:47

Second of all, when you are when you present more androgynous or more feminine, how do other men treat you?

SPEAKER_01 30:55

I don't feel like I ever present that that feminine. Like, I mean, I feel like even at the max for me, it's still pretty masculine.

SPEAKER_02 31:01

I mean, oh sure, but like if you have like a little something something that you're sporting.

SPEAKER_01 31:07

Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

Do you get any backlash?

SPEAKER_01 31:11

I haven't.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

Really?

SPEAKER_01 31:12

I mean, I think it helps that I'm just big. And so, like, I've I've started noticing this talking to my boss and my coworker too. Like, I mean, they're both women, also, it's just like you get more shit, I think.

SPEAKER_02 31:23

But like being a man? Or wait, what?

SPEAKER_01 31:26

No, no, I think being being a woman, you get way more shit. Yeah, right. Like people just give you shit and are like annoying and like very assumptive about how they can treat you in a way that like never happens to me because like A, I I'm a guy and I'm big-ish. You know, I mean I'm not huge, but like bigger than average, right? And so it's really rare.

SPEAKER_04 31:45

Big deep voice.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think I put off like a energy like I know what I'm talking about when I often don't.

SPEAKER_04 31:53

Every day you do. I would agree with that all the time.

SPEAKER_01 31:56

So it just doesn't, I I don't it doesn't come up either way. Um, I mean, I've never pushed it that far in terms of feminine expression, you know.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

Why not?

SPEAKER_04 32:06

Um, do you have the bag designers to like push that?

SPEAKER_01 32:10

I think I have an aesthetic objection to it with like our I'm open to a possible way of doing it, but I just think like for just from a non-gender focused aesthetic standpoint, like most forms of I think of of feminine like fashion, right? Like they're designed around a certain body shape, more or less, and I have like the polar opposite of that body shape, and so to me, aesthetically, it could just never look good.

SPEAKER_02 32:37

Fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

Um I don't know, there could be a way, like I'm open to a way to explore it.

SPEAKER_02 32:43

Like what what body would be ideal for that, in your opinion?

SPEAKER_01 32:50

Um well, right, like most feminine fashion is like at least semi-tailored around sort of some vague hourglass-y kind of shape, right? For the record, I also hate that. What do you say? For the record, I also hate that. I could imagine it being limiting on that end too.

SPEAKER_03 33:07

I hate that.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Um But it's like it's designed around that and it works really well with, you know, by and large, right, with that style. Yep. Um and boobs and hips. Yeah. Yeah. And so like if you were, you know, if if even if you were didn't ha like if you were just kind of like fairly straight up and down, boxy, like you could kind of you can nurse it that way a little bit, right? With the fashion. Exactly, right? Yeah. But like for my body shape, it's like we're so far from that that like there's no there's no nurse in it. You know, I mean it's like I feel like that could be quite limiting in exploring the are you telling me that perspective or that reality?

SPEAKER_02 33:54

The perspective. Like I said, anything in anyone can be androgynous. It's just a matter of perspective.

SPEAKER_03 34:00

It's also probably a matter of finding what that piece of clothing is, right? Or like knowing what it is that you're looking for.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

Yeah. Like what will bring out certain things that you want to bring.

SPEAKER_03 34:14

Like that not only brings out the femininity, but brings out confidence in you too. Because like you said, there's things maybe that you would do, but you don't do it because you wouldn't feel confident wearing it because it doesn't fit you right, or it just feels uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

You have a body, so you're like totally eligible to I I agree.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

And I I just think aesthetically I don't think it looks good.

SPEAKER_02 34:34

Damn, I wish we were coming to the clothing swap this weekend.

SPEAKER_03 34:39

We need to find the right place to show.

SPEAKER_02 34:41

Can you and I try and remember this weekend? Like, let's try and pick some stuff out for Wolf.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

Some giant shit.

SPEAKER_02 34:48

Slutty little blouse!

SPEAKER_03 34:50

I'm telling you, like, I could see like a puff sleeve, like low-cut blouse with some painted nails, some tight pants on your butt, you know. Oh my god. I could see it. Some split. Yep. What is that? With with them buns.

SPEAKER_02 35:05

What's Amadeus?

SPEAKER_01 35:07

Um Mozart. Right. They got the big fluffy sleeves and like the big frilly kind of like shirts in that era.

SPEAKER_03 35:14

Old vampire era kind of. I love that idea. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

Yeah, no, that could be interesting to explore, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 35:21

I love exploring. Maybe we can do that with you.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

I feel like Hey, if you find it, I'll try it on.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

Slutty little blouse, all right?

SPEAKER_03 35:27

Yeah, and I think that I kind of struggle with that in the same way, but different, sort of, where it's like, I feel like no matter what I put on my body, it doesn't come off necessarily very masculine because I do have like feminine facial features and I have long hair. And I I don't know, and even my body shape too. I'm like I I struggled with it again. It was like a polo in shorts, and I was like, okay, this is kind of where I stop.

SPEAKER_02 35:54

Yeah, you know. Yeah. I think you're right though, that it's very, very personal, and it's just about finding the right item or items that make you feel a certain way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:05

That can be hard to find.

unknown 36:07

True.

SPEAKER_04 36:07

It takes time. All good things take time.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

So open. Opening up, buddies. I have a hard time with my own body now that we're all talking about our own bodies. Yeah. Please share. Because I have this bodacious booty, and to me, that's not androgynous. Even though I'm telling you guys, um actually everything is, but it's really hard to feel doodly with this gigantic booty. I mean, some dudes have some bodacious hips. Some do, but not a lot. I mean, some do. Yeah. I think you're right. I think I need to do some work on redefining my own definition for myself of what is and I'm not trying necessarily to be masculine.

SPEAKER_03 36:58

I don't find the balance, right? I don't have a huge connection.

SPEAKER_02 37:01

Yeah, I don't have a huge connection with the words feminine and masculine for myself. But I just think that I mean, I know there's um a lot, like a millennia of stories and uh experiences people have with those two words. I just yeah, I just don't connect with that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just trying to figure out what feels like Meredith right now, and that changes.

SPEAKER_03 37:24

Right. Yeah. Well, and it's unfortunate that we have, you know, very designated masculine clothing, very designated feminine clothing. But there's not very designated androgynous somewhere in the middle.

SPEAKER_02 37:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:35

Right. Somebody needs to make that.

SPEAKER_02 37:37

I know. But it's it's helpful, I mean, to host uh clothing swaps that are for all genders. Yeah. But still the the fact of the matter is you're right, like it's obvious it's often all like very straight or very curvy. I guess if we're trying to be. But like this sweatshirt that I'm wearing and this hat, like this feels and having my mul like this mullet.

SPEAKER_03 38:04

Yeah, the hair's doing it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:06

This mullet is gender euphoria. This makes me feel like Meredith. Like, I don't feel like a a doodly or like an androgynous or a feminine or a masculine person. I just feel like Meredith. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's maybe what I should be working towards. And we should all be working towards it.

SPEAKER_03 38:22

That's a great goal. Let's all be Meredith.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

I should have my birthday party be everyone arrived dressed as Meredith.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

That would be so fun.

SPEAKER_02 38:36

I kind of I mean it was a joke because it's like a little egotistical, but no way.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

I think that would be a good one.

SPEAKER_02 38:40

I feel like kind of like how would people do that?

SPEAKER_03 38:43

I think that would be so fun.

SPEAKER_02 38:45

Because I like, I try to keep it fresh. Like, I love a floral dress.

SPEAKER_03 38:49

I love like you do a great job of big changing it up.

SPEAKER_02 38:53

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 38:54

You really do. There's a lot of variety in it.

SPEAKER_02 38:56

I love a slutty little blouse. Yeah. Sometimes, sometimes it's very inappropriate for the for that day. True. Very true. All right.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

I think you I think you should do that. I think that would be so funny.

SPEAKER_02 39:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

Because it's like, because then everyone's gonna act like you too, which is gonna make it really obvious to be. I don't know if we want that. Oh, we definitely want that.

SPEAKER_02 39:19

A whole turkey in your back and a pear in your front. In the front. Yeah. That's one book. Yeah, exactly. I think it's both. Um what would be a uh quote that you'd like to leave us with?

SPEAKER_03 39:39

Um I have a couple of them. Um one is actually a quote um from my favorite poet. Um it's Ruby Kore, The Sun and Her Flowers. And it's actually tattooed on my body. Uh it says, and here you are living despite it all.

SPEAKER_02 39:55

Which I've noticed that.

SPEAKER_03 39:57

I think it's just I did cut the word living out of it just because it didn't fit on my leg.

SPEAKER_00 40:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:02

Um, but I think it's just a really nice, gentle reminder that like you've made it through all of your hard days. And you can keep on trucking. We can do the hard thing. Um and the other one is not really a quote, it's actually a poem that I wrote.

SPEAKER_04 40:17

You did.

SPEAKER_03 40:20

I am jizzing myself. And it's called This Isn't Really About Soup.

SPEAKER_02 40:27

Those of you that know, of course it has the word soup in it.

SPEAKER_03 40:32

So those of you that know, I'm not sure. Not me talking about vocal stim where I say the word soup to explain a lot of things. Oh my god. Um so this really isn't about soup. Some days Okay. Some days we're in the soup. Full chaos, no recipe, just heat. Other days it's sparkling water in a fancy bowl, still soup, still valid. Some soups don't remember the salt. Some soups are all salt. Some soups have been through it, spilled, reheated, questioned, left on the stove a little too long. Still soup, still good. Not every soup makes sense at first taste. Some need time and some need context. Some just need someone who isn't a picky eater. We're all just soups out here in the soup. Weird, wonderful, and hard to explain at a dinner party. Together we make one huge soup. Some of us are still finding our flavor. Some of us are still on the stove. That's okay because good things simmer. So be a good soup, spread the word, keep the pot warm, and don't forget to bring a big ladle.

SPEAKER_05 41:36

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 41:37

Of course you wrote a poem about soup.

SPEAKER_03 41:40

My love is soup. It's not really about soup.

SPEAKER_02 41:43

Oh Hannah! When did your I'm glad this came up. When did your um you said it's a vocal stem? I've never heard of that.

SPEAKER_03 41:53

Yeah, it's like you know when you have a saying amongst friends or something that just like sticks and then it's broadly applicable. Yeah, it's everyone keeps saying it, whatever. I get a lot of those, like brain worms, where it's like I just keep saying it. It's like the buckets thing to say like, oh, buckets, you know. It just keeps coming up. I have no idea where soup came from. It just developed and it made a lot of sense to explain a lot of different things.

SPEAKER_02 42:18

It's everywhere and all of it.

SPEAKER_03 42:19

We are the soup, we're in the soup. This shit is soup. Yeah. Like everything.

SPEAKER_02 42:24

Yeah. Literally. You say that word so much, and Brendan does too. And it describes you're right. It's like, God, it is everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 42:32

Yeah. And it's a lot of fun. It's like, you know, delights beget delights. It's like soup beget delights. Soup beget soup.

SPEAKER_02 42:42

It's everywhere. What if our title, like the last one was Delights Beget Delights? What if this one is Soup Beget Soup? Love that.

SPEAKER_00 42:50

There you go. I love that. There we go.

SPEAKER_02 42:51

Thank you so much for sharing your poetry. I love how many people have shared their original stuff.

SPEAKER_03 42:56

Yeah. It was a lot of fun. And thank you for creating a safe space to do so.

SPEAKER_02 43:00

Oh, thank you for being here. Thank you guys. Oh my God.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

Thanks for being on the show. This is so fun.

SPEAKER_02 43:05

Thanks, guys. It's great. If you enjoyed the show.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

Yeah, send it to your friends. Rate it on the podcast platform for us. I just found out this week that you can like comment on the episodes actually.

SPEAKER_02 43:21

An individual episode of tonight.

SPEAKER_01 43:23

If you're something moved you, you had a thought, you were like, oh me too, but also if you listened this far, comment soup.

SPEAKER_02 43:32

Yeah. And we'll know.

SPEAKER_01 43:34

We'll know you're a true fan. Yeah. True fan. Alright. If you have thoughts or questions, you can email us, wow at wonder.media. We'll be back next week with someone new. Some more wonder.

SPEAKER_04 43:46

Some more soup.

SPEAKER_01 43:47

More soup.

SPEAKER_04 43:48

Be a good soup. Bye guys. Bye. Bye.