WunderPod
On the WunderPod, Mer and Wolf have intimate and broad-reaching conversations with a wide range of creative guests about the wonders of existence: unscripted, unrestrained, and uncut.
Contact: wow@wunder.media
WunderPod
Jack Pt 1 - Looking back (muscular reconstruction surgery)
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Jack joins Wolf and Mer for a journey back in time. They write letters to their younger selves (squishy!!) and Jack shares his first memory, raising everyone’s eyebrows. The gang reminisces about Legos and getting bullied as kids. The conversation turns to how excuses can become fact, and what it’s like to be stuck in a jail of your own creation.
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But yeah, I have like very vivid memories of like Big Bird coming to the house and like making me my breakfast.
SPEAKER_04Be prepared to sink and feel in.
SPEAKER_03There are no for me. Not knowing what's out there. Let's do it. I feel like a elusive goon right now. I feel like denying someone entry right now.
SPEAKER_01Like being like, hey, uh, sorry, I don't think it's over tonight. Not for you.
SPEAKER_05Okay. Um, do you feel lubed? Are you wet?
SPEAKER_03I'm wet.
SPEAKER_05Okay, great.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Let's start this lie. Catch some drips, you know.
SPEAKER_05Wipe it up.
SPEAKER_03Wipe it up.
SPEAKER_00The damp spots growing.
SPEAKER_03Gonna need some bounty. Get a towel.
SPEAKER_00All right. Welcome to the wonder pod. We are here with Jack.
SPEAKER_03You can say hi. Is this my cue? This is your cue. This is my cue. Hello. I'm Jack. All right, Jack.
SPEAKER_05Well, that was unexpected.
SPEAKER_03I know.
SPEAKER_00Who where did that come from? Who would have thought? Crazy. Um, all right. Can you tell us three things about yourself?
SPEAKER_03I can. I have them written down. I was prepared. Oh my god, look at us. We appreciate it.
SPEAKER_05Thanks for giving a shit.
SPEAKER_03I I did. I was really excited when I got the outline.
SPEAKER_05Good.
SPEAKER_03I looked at it a bunch. Oh, good. It's great. Wow, we love that. And it was it was very thought out, and I was just excited about it.
SPEAKER_05Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_03Um, my three things about myself. I have a lazy eye. I've been to 48 states, but I've only lived in two, and I just got engaged.
SPEAKER_05Hell yeah. Woohoo! Congratulations.
SPEAKER_03Three pertinent things. What what are the two what two states are remaining? What two states are remaining? No, no, no. Oh. Kansas. Please.
SPEAKER_05Kansas. Have you been to Kansas?
SPEAKER_03I sure have. Oh. I love Kansas. How about? I think Kansas is severely underrated, actually.
SPEAKER_05West Virginia.
SPEAKER_03I've been to West Virginia.
SPEAKER_00Um, I would guess Hawaii as well. Alaska? No, Alaska definitely been there.
SPEAKER_05You've been to Alaska and Hawaii?
SPEAKER_00No. What?
SPEAKER_05Oh, okay, there we go.
SPEAKER_00Neither. You've never been to Alaska?
SPEAKER_03I have not. That's so surprising to me for you.
SPEAKER_05Tel Keatna. That was pretty impressive.
SPEAKER_03Well, it's because Emily lived in Alaska. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I've heard a lot of secondhand knowledge.
SPEAKER_00Wow. So you've been to all the continental.
SPEAKER_03I've been to all the driveables. Gotcha. Well, you can drive to Alaska. Like the contiguous ones are pretty pretty minimal to drive through. Yeah. So I've driven to every single one.
SPEAKER_00That's really impressive. I don't I don't think how many states do you think you've been to?
SPEAKER_05Oh. Um, let's see, Alaska, because I'm from there. Okay, West Coast 4. Eighthole. Maybe like twelve.
SPEAKER_02Twelve.
SPEAKER_05Not many. But I haven't I used to not really care about traveling domestically. I only want to do international. So now I'm interested in domestic. I'll catch up.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you'll get there.
SPEAKER_05How about you?
SPEAKER_00I don't know. Probably like 30.
SPEAKER_05You're from the east.
SPEAKER_00I know. I feel like that's a cheat code for sure.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I've never really been over there.
SPEAKER_00So many in such a small area.
SPEAKER_03Like the move alone buys you 12. That's true. Yeah. Especially when you're from one of those little northeast Maryland, Massachusetts. Like you gotta drive through a lot of states just to get out of there. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And you have a lazy eye. Congratulations.
SPEAKER_03I do. Yes.
SPEAKER_05What do you think about it?
SPEAKER_03Well, I used to be cross-eyed, and then I got surgery, and they were like, How about a lazy eye instead?
SPEAKER_05They gave you an option?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, uh, they must have given my mother an option.
SPEAKER_05I see. You weren't really there for the chat.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, I was three. So I don't think I was aware that there were chats to be had. And I think the lazy eye was more of like an untoward effect of the surgery. Oh I think it was more like, let's make sure he's not cross-eyed.
SPEAKER_00We can get 80% better.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, I think it was more like we can make him not cross-eyed, but maybe this will happen. Or maybe they didn't even say that, but it just happened. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know what causes it. I was born that way. Okay.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Till you were three. And then you had surgery. Do you have any idea about the specifics of what the surgery did or what they did in the surgery?
SPEAKER_03I know that it was a muscular reconstruction surgery. That's what I know. And I know that they put little stitches in my eyes afterwards. And some of my first memories are after the surgery while the stitches were still in, and I could not see.
SPEAKER_00Wait. Your eye opened.
SPEAKER_03The eyes weren't like stitched shut like at the way by any means. No, they were like little tiny stitches in the eyes, but I still couldn't open.
SPEAKER_05They had to be. That was your you remember that, but you remember maybe other senses, like what you heard or what you felt.
SPEAKER_03Well, I remember the weird thing, is that because I had vision before memories started, and then memories started, like I had memories of hearing things and seeing the world in a somewhat truthful sense, but not quite, because my eyes were closed. Yeah, yeah. But it was like realistic, but not accurate. It wasn't reality, but it was realistic.
SPEAKER_00Interesting. Like so it's like a fragmented or like a partial reality?
SPEAKER_03It was like schizophrenia. Like it wasn't it wasn't quite right. It was uncanny, like interesting. I know enough about what the world looks like to in to like associate these sounds with what's going on. Oh, okay. But I'm also three, so I don't know that much.
SPEAKER_05How long were you not able to see?
SPEAKER_03I think just like a few weeks to a month, maybe.
unknownDude.
SPEAKER_03But yeah, I have like very vivid memories of like Big Bird coming to the house and like making me my breakfast.
SPEAKER_04Like vivid, vivid.
SPEAKER_03Really? Just psychotic.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Wait, so hold on. You is that did did Big Bird come to your house?
SPEAKER_03He did not. No.
SPEAKER_05But I think you were gonna ask as a follow-up.
SPEAKER_03I I should maybe seek some clarity on this from like my parents. You should ask because I'm I mean I'm sure it wasn't Big Bird, but I bet there was like some adult figure but you couldn't see, i.e., an uncle who their voice maybe resembled Big Bird.
SPEAKER_00Oh, and you're filling in the gaps in your head, in your memory, because there was no like you couldn't really see what was going on.
SPEAKER_03I couldn't see what was going on, but I knew what Big Bird roughly sounded like. So when a character comes into my life and I can't see them, but I've been watching a lot of Sesame Street. I'm like, oh, that's Big Bird. Right, right, right, right. You know, I could hear the pants, you know.
SPEAKER_00Wow. That's amazing that you have that that distinct specific memories from being that young. Do you remember when you were three?
SPEAKER_05No, I wonder if it's because you lost one of your senses and so everything else heightened.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But I don't know. That could make sense. Or just like the whole experience was like so like probably like pretty intense for you for you as a child.
SPEAKER_03And I think that's like I think that's a thing with memory.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_03Like I read somewhere at some point, so peer review it if you want. But your first memory is usually like either an exceedingly uncharacteristically pleasant one or a traumatic one. Interesting. I don't know where on the spectrum Big Bird cooking me breakfast is while I'm blinded, but it's like a little bit of both. A little bit of both. But it's definitely on there. You know, it's one of those extremes.
SPEAKER_05Do you remember your first memory? I don't even know if I remember mine.
SPEAKER_00Oh wow. Um my memory is notoriously terrible. I my no, my first memories are like when I'm like six or seven or something like that, I think. Um mostly playing outside by myself.
SPEAKER_03Dramatic.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. A little bit. A little bit isolating. Yeah, I think.
SPEAKER_03What about you?
SPEAKER_05I I would have to really think about it and talk to my siblings.
SPEAKER_03I think you always you always remember your first memory because it's whatever you can remember.
SPEAKER_00Like, but I don't think it's like a s I think depending on when I'm when I'm thinking about it and trying to remember when it is, like, it could change. Like what's the first thing I can remember.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00You know, like I don't sound like you it's interesting that you have such a distinct, like, specific memory of that that's like so recallable immediately. Because like for me, it's like I had to think about it and I was like, that's right. I have these ones that are kind of like from this time, but like I don't really know exactly the order of them. You know, it's like these memories of being, yeah, probably six or seven or whatever at my house playing, you know, there's some with some Legos in the basement, there's like some being outside, but like I I don't really know how they fit in the timeline.
SPEAKER_03What was your favorite Lego set as a kid?
SPEAKER_00Um, so we somehow, I don't know, I should ask my parents where this came from, but somehow they ended up with like three just giant tubs of assorted Lego.
SPEAKER_03That's how it goes. We all started there. Okay, okay. Yeah, that that's the right answer.
SPEAKER_00And I just built stuff. Like I never really had sets. Like I actually I can't even remember them ever like buying me like a here's the you build the you know thing from Star Wars or whatever it is. Right. Um it was always just like sets. And I think when they first got them, I should I don't remember exactly how those happened, but like a whole there was like a bin or so or two bins, and then there was like this giant, like sort of DIY spaceship thing that I my dad must have built or something, and it had all these hidden compartments in it that were like filled with like specific like little jewels or like other little Lego components, you know. Right. And I probably spent like three months with that thing, like carefully taking it apart to like see where the compartments were without destroying it.
SPEAKER_05That's amazing. All those Legos, I didn't grow up playing Legos, they they always make me pretty overwhelmed because there's so many pieces and they're always so fucking small.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I feel like Lego is like a system that if you don't know all the pieces and what the options are and how they go together, like it's kind of a complex system, you know. If you haven't if you don't have experience with it, I think I could see it being pretty overwhelming.
SPEAKER_05I've only played with them as an adult. And I never want to do it for very long.
SPEAKER_03I feel like there's a pretty sharp distinction between like the the crates of Legos that we get, and then it's just pure imagination, and then a Lego set. Yeah. Like to this day, I feel instructions, right? Yeah, to this day a Lego set's appealing. I think it's like it's like getting a little box with a little instruction manual.
SPEAKER_05Like Do you when have you do you need to get yourself one of those?
SPEAKER_03I think I'm I think I may need to get myself one of those. It's been a while. Yeah. But it's like I I love following instructions. You know?
SPEAKER_05I think I really gratifying more than the the tub of madness.
SPEAKER_00I feel like starting with the tub of madness as an adult is like that's pretty hard.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know. Like starting with a set as an adult, I think, is like much more approachable. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_05Color by number.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. One time I built a candy machine out of Legos, that was pretty cool. That's really cool.
SPEAKER_05Wait, and it dispensed candy. Shut up.
SPEAKER_00You like turned the silk crank and it was spit out a little candy at the bottom. That's so cool. It was really fun. That was pretty fun.
SPEAKER_05That would be an incentive as a incentive.
SPEAKER_00I wasn't that into candy as a kid.
SPEAKER_05Oh, remember when you ate all the candy that you weren't supposed to eat?
SPEAKER_01I do remember that, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, that was we had a wonder quest from Vivi. She was on, and she um she created a huge scavenger hunt for us, for us and Brenton to do. And the prize was a bag of candy, and he ate all of it. And he didn't fucking feel bad, and he still doesn't, and even even though it's been four months.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was we found it, and then there was like a little bit of a scheduling snafu, and so we did the whole um We did the scavenger hunt first, and then later we came back and recorded. Yeah, did the podcast like two weeks later or something like that. And in in the intervening two weeks, I just ate the whole bag of candy, and the worst part about it was like it never woke up every morning and there was a bag of candy on the table.
SPEAKER_01Don't mind if I do, don't mind if I do. And then we're sitting recording it. Mary's like, So where's the candy? And I was like, ah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Huh.
SPEAKER_05Well, it's gonna some betrayal that I'm not moving past.
SPEAKER_03Floating down the dischutes.
SPEAKER_05Well, speaking of Wonder Quest, speaking of Wonder Quest.
SPEAKER_00Um, last episode, Hannah um assigned us to find an old photograph of ourselves and write a letter to that younger self with you know what you wish you could tell them, what things are coming their way, um, and whatever else kind of comes to mind. So, Jack, how how was your experience with that?
SPEAKER_03Me, it was good. I think the thing that I fixated on the most was the finding of the photo. It's like which self needs needs some knowledge right now? Because there's a lot of photos of me. Most photos, when you look back at like old photos of you, it's just you smiling because I feel like back in the day, like you kind of had to Yeah, everyone's like, smile. Yeah. Smile for the photo. Like, film ain't cheap. Like make it count. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh so I went back and there's a couple photos from a family vacation in Vermont. When I was I I can't gauge the age of a kid. I'll pass around the photo that I decided to do. Maybe six, six-ish. I'm on a boat with my dad. Wow, with a map or something? Yeah, my dad's looking at a map. We were very lost in this it was uh Lake Nymphomagog. I know it all. Lake Jesus. Yeah, Lake Nymphomagog, which is it teeters the border between Vermont and Quebec.
SPEAKER_05I thought it was over there somewhere.
SPEAKER_03Um and there was like my uncle John, his company or whatever, had a house up there, and they would all take turns vacationing there. Yeah, so when they vacation there, we would like our family would go up to, and there was a little boat, we'd cruise around, and I guess this this is a moment where we just were very lost. And in this picture, you look really concerned.
SPEAKER_00Like you look like you're trying to read the map, you're trying to figure out where you are. I look very scared.
SPEAKER_05I'm about to get nymphomagogued.
SPEAKER_03I'm about to get nymphomagogued. That's right. And I think my letter mainly appealed to this younger version of myself that was very lost and concerned. Um and I didn't so much touch on like, oh, like what's to come, what's like things that are gonna happen to you. It was mainly uh words of advice, you know, trying to comfort this younger version of myself with the knowledge that I have as an adult. Um and I can I don't know if we're reading our letters. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go for it.
SPEAKER_05I can read it's a pretty hopefully if you're down, I'd love to hear it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I can read it. It's a pretty short one. I need to bring it really close to my face because I don't have my glasses. But it goes, hey buddy, try not to get discouraged. You're gonna get lost more than once in this life. A map is no good if you don't know where you are on it. Look up and orient yourself. There's stuff all over the place. It may be unfamiliar stuff and confusing, but nothing means anything until you decide it does. Just find one point, one feature in the mountains, one tree that's taller than the rest, the big rock on the shore where all the birds like to hang out and fish together. Remember that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Remember the story of the ghost of the summer dawn and the drinking gourd. Figure out what's around you and pick a path. It doesn't need to be right, it probably won't be, and that's okay. Failure is the one true teacher. You're only making your map bigger. Give yourself a chance to figure it out. Wow. So that's for that little youngin' who's all concerned about where he is.
SPEAKER_05I really like that he's only making the map bigger.
SPEAKER_03He's only making the map bigger.
SPEAKER_05Thank you for reading that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I'm curious about the story of the old ghost or whatever you just said.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah. That that's um so the the story of the ghost of the summer dawn. Yes. That's like kind of like a nursery story about Orion. Oh my gosh. The consolation Orion. Okay. And how in July, which I'm pretty sure is when roundabouts when this photo was. Yeah. But in the Northeast in July, the Orion consolation is due east right before dawn.
SPEAKER_01Huh.
SPEAKER_03So you can make out, and I remember that was one of the few consolations I knew as a kid. Yeah. As every kid is like, Orion's belt.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You know, it's the three stars that are. But yeah, that feature in the night sky right before dawn is like exactly true east.
SPEAKER_05Hell yeah.
SPEAKER_00Wow, I didn't know that. I I feel like my dad always talked about the the I think that was it, the Big Dipper points at the North Star. It does, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And that's the uh that's the drinking gourd. Oh never heard it called that. Yeah, the big ladle. Well, that was during um what was it called? The Underground Railroad. Oh. The Drinking Gourd.
SPEAKER_05I forgot about that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Wow.
SPEAKER_00I don't think that's a good thing.
SPEAKER_05Oh my god, I'm I'm remembering so many things I read as a kid about the Underground Railroad Railroad. Cool.
SPEAKER_00I thought that was like an actual underground cave system for a while when I was a kid. I was like, damn, that's a big thing to build. Like, like Doug of the whole thing underground, that's incredible.
SPEAKER_03In the 1800s?
SPEAKER_00And I was like, dude, I want to find it, I want to go in that thing. Like, I want to go check out that cave. That sounds sick as hell.
SPEAKER_05Whoa.
SPEAKER_00It took me a while to figure that out.
SPEAKER_05Intense.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Well, you got a photo?
SPEAKER_05Well, I'm kind of stuck now on thinking about the underground.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah. I haven't thought about it.
SPEAKER_05Thank God for the underground.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, indeed.
SPEAKER_05Um, okay. Well, I'm gonna go next. I was a loud, excited child.
SPEAKER_00As opposed to now when you're not.
SPEAKER_05I was in the backseat of my friend's van.
SPEAKER_01I feel like that photo could have been taken last week.
SPEAKER_05I have uh I'm I have my mouth wide open, I'm making a face, I have a backwards hat on, I'm surrounded by uh one human body and a bunch of luggage. So I'm sure we're like going somewhere. And this is this was not my family van, but this was our friend's van. Okay, hey little guy. There you are in the backseat of the Sanderson's 12 seater van dressed in your favorite black shirt and lime green tank top combo. Your mouth and eyes wide open, and the thrill threatening to s explode out of your skin. You must be 12 here. You're on an adventure with a Sandersons and your sisters. The Sandersons were this family um there's like eight kids or something. And they were just very exciting to me. Um maybe you're headed to the lake to go interviewing behind their boat, or maybe you're going up to Canada for convention. There are different rules when you're with the Sandersons than when you're with your parents. You're stoked out of your mind. I found this picture this week and it made me giggle. Younger Meredith thought everything was fun, you didn't get bored much, and you were always entertaining everyone. But the party never stopped, for better or for worse. I really enjoyed witnessing your stoke. When I look at this moment, I remember the magic you were feeling, lighting every part of you up. It's tempting to get lost. See, this is the part where I'm like, oh it's tempting to get lost in how a certain person tried all kinds of ways to shut you down back then. To quiet you, to make you remember who was boss, to not ask too many questions or follow the sparks of curiosity and hilarity in your brain. But I'd rather focus on how you are eventually going to find your voice and stand tall. You may be physically small now and be a child and not have enough autonomy. You may feel frustrated and upset and you can't do shit about it. But when you get older, uh bigger, I said, you will say, You can't tell me to be quiet anymore. You will take up your space because it is yours. You'll discover that nobody is really in charge. There are no rules, you can do whatever you want. You can choose to have fun and not be scared. This is your body, your mind, and your story. You can choose who you have close to you and who you protect yourself from. You can decide what is safe for you and you can tell people to fuck right off. You can decide what is true to you while supporting other people's beliefs. This letter started out sweet and now we're in some different territory. I have to go now. But it would be helpful if you tell yourself I love you whenever you need to hear it and to be your own best friend. Because honey, you are my best friend. Okay, XOXO, big mare. So the the anger, the the hurt that I um where I paused, that was kind of like a I I think that was the fork in the road, and I think that in the moment that's what came to mind.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And I'm like, okay, I'll write about this. But that topic, I feel I feel tired of it. I often when I sit down to write, that comes up. And I I I'm realizing now that I'm saying that out loud, that obviously that means I need to write more about it because it's not like fully resolved. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05But I kind of I'm tired of it. And also I do need to address it when I write. I just need to fucking sit down and give it some space. I don't know. I feel conflicted. I have some I have some stuff around writing, and we're probably gonna talk about writing too.
SPEAKER_00I mean it could also it could be not done, and it also could be okay to put it on the shelf for a little bit.
SPEAKER_05Okay, it's out.
SPEAKER_00You know, you could you could put it on pause for a little bit and then come back to it at some point in the future when you have a fresh perspective and I'd like to. Instead of kind of like circling it a lot of times.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I'm circling it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. It's like, yeah, okay, we can see it. It's there. It's there. You can take a little walk around, go somewhere else, and then come back to it. I'm so angry. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And I need I would I should fucking write about it. Okay.
SPEAKER_03Was that the part that you were not satisfied about?
SPEAKER_05I was like, I was thinking maybe something else would come out. But then that came out.
SPEAKER_00And you're like, not this again.
SPEAKER_05Exactly.
SPEAKER_00This isn't true.
SPEAKER_05It is true, but it's it needs to be processed via writing and probably conversations. But of course I've had a million conversations about it. But I need to have conversations with my pen.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Even though I don't think I want to.
SPEAKER_03But it's good. It's personal, but it's you. You know? Correct. Not in front of other people, not where it's scary. You can just be like, alright. If I want to take back any of these thoughts, I can't. So might as well put them all down. And then I can maybe scratch out the ones that I'm like. You know, in the moment it felt like this needed to come out, but maybe this isn't really how I feel. Interesting.
SPEAKER_00Sometimes I feel like Thank you. I feel like sometimes writing is scarier than talking about it. Like I would rather sometimes talk about it with somebody else than write. Like the writing feels so permanent in a way. I mean that they some essence of them remains. But they're they've they've vaporized.
SPEAKER_03I feel the opposite. Really? But I think that comes from a perception of like thinking people are going to remember every single word I say. Ah, sure. Sure.
SPEAKER_05Thank you. Thank you for articulating that, because that's something I have a problem with.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05No one cares about what I'm saying. Nobody cares. Thank you.
SPEAKER_03No one cares. Nobody's gonna remember it. Thank you. And this is something that I struggle with. I'm like, once I say something to someone, that's when it becomes permanent.
SPEAKER_00That's when it's out there.
SPEAKER_03Like when I write it down, I can like hold it close to my chest and I see and keep it safe.
SPEAKER_05It's very it's very ephemeral. It's only here for a sec.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. It doesn't feel but when you say it to a person, it's like they're gonna hold on to that forever. I don't think ever gonna be.
SPEAKER_05Oh, this is your belief. Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_03They're gonna look at me differently if I say if I say the thing and it's like ew.
SPEAKER_05That's the pivot. That's the moment.
SPEAKER_03That's the pivot.
SPEAKER_05Yuck. See, things that's that's something I'm wrestling with.
SPEAKER_03But that's not true.
SPEAKER_05Ugh.
unknownPeople don't care about you.
SPEAKER_05Thank you for the reminder. Thank God.
SPEAKER_00Nobody cares about you.
SPEAKER_05Okay, what did you write? And let's see your picture.
SPEAKER_00Okay, yeah. So, um, as I mentioned, my uh memory is notoriously terrible. Um, it's really bad generally, and especially in my childhood. And so I was kind of like, I'm trying to think about a specific moment, even looking at a photograph to write to. Like, I feel like I'd be making it up because I was like, I I can't really remember, like I can't put myself in the shoes of how I felt in that moment. Um, and so I was like, okay, I think what I'm gonna do is think about this maybe like more broadly and weave together a few aspects of my childhood. Um, because I'm right now, I'm like, or in the last like couple of years, I've been revisiting a lot of hobbies and activities and things that I liked when I was a little kid, um, and then either got out of or wasn't interested in anymore, or um kind of felt capped out on. Um, so anyway, so this photo is um me, I think I'm probably about four or five um in a big bird costume.
SPEAKER_03Big bird.
SPEAKER_00Dude, maybe I was cooking eggs. Maybe that was taking a trip up to visit the cousins in Boston and just stopped on by.
SPEAKER_05Hey, other than the gigantic bird covering most of your body, your style hasn't changed. You're holding a ladle, bro. It's crazy.
SPEAKER_00See, that's the thing, is I'm really I'm like, I feel like I'm like returning to my childhood self in a lot of ways.
SPEAKER_03Um and like bring sorry, honestly, not dissimilar to your current like in any like it's true. Sorry, sorry to cut you off. No, no, no.
SPEAKER_05I think he's probably relieved to hear that.
SPEAKER_00But you're returning. I feel like I'm returning a little bit um to that era. I mean, like, you know, like all these photos of me as a kid, I have like really colorful clothes, and then like for a long time, like I didn't do that at all. Um, and like, you know, I used to play music a lot when I was growing up, and I pretty much stopped for like 10 or 15 years. You were hiding because of Germany. Well, Germany was Germany was the the real Yeah. In Deutschland we only wear gray, black, gray, and and tan only. Um yeah, so um anyway, so I'm thinking back about these times and like about why like A, why did I abandon these activities that I liked? Um, and like what was the challenge with them, you know? And it's like looking back on them, the thing that I've been able to change about myself to like enjoy them more and be more successful, like produce they're mostly creative, like a lot of them are creative endeavors. Um, create things that I'm like, wow, I love this rather than feeling kind of stifled. Is like I look back at my like childhood self and I think I was like pretty like self-protective, you know. I was like pretty closed in about like how I could be in the world and like had to be um yeah, I had to, I feel like I had to like protect myself from what was going on around me. Um, which you know, I'm not sure how helpful just to second guess your choices as a child, but like I think probably there was an opportunity to be softer in the world, and I probably would have, or like thinking back to that, I'm like I probably would have enjoyed all these things I was doing more, you know, and could have I guess it would have been scarier for sure. Um but uh yeah, so I I um made this painting like maybe a month ago um that just says soften, and I made a bunch of stickers of it to like stick around to kind of remind me about that. Um but yeah, when I was thinking about this quest, I was like, that feels like the thing that hearing right, hearing that I could be soft and that would be okay would have I think been I don't know. I I I I was thinking about it, you know, at specific moments, you know, where I'm getting bullied or whatever, where I'm like, what would that have been like? And it I don't know, you know. I mean, in some ways it seems pretty scary to like even imagine that, but also it's kind of like maybe that could have been fine, right? Like maybe actually that could have been like leaning into that and being like, okay, yeah, this is who I am and how I am in the world, like could have actually been more of a way to like defend my you know inner self against that experience because it didn't I wouldn't have had to like question whether, like, oh, is this okay? You know, it could have just been like, Yeah, that is okay, actually, and like somebody giving a shit about it, like doesn't actually matter that much, you know, or like you can move past that more about them than it does about you.
SPEAKER_03Totally, totally. And there's also like when you're already because I kind of dealt with the same thing where like I was being some version of me that was a little guarded and protected, totally, and I was getting bullied anyway, and I was like, it didn't even work to help. I was like, if I'm already getting bullied, I might as well just be whatever I want.
SPEAKER_00Wow, you know, you had that, you were like had that realization as a kid?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Wow, that is amazing.
SPEAKER_05Wait, so how did you respond?
SPEAKER_03I was I was just like Okay.
SPEAKER_05Like you kind of let it roll off of you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Like kids started, you know, you know, this might be not, yeah, this might not be like super PC, but back in the day, kids would call me like gay and stuff. They'd be like, what are you, gay? And I'd be like, yeah. That's amazing. Wow. And then they would scatter. They'd be like, ew, don't get your gay cooties on me. And I'd be like, I'll try not to.
SPEAKER_05Wait, and did you feel pain? I felt like empowered.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd be like liberated by that.
SPEAKER_03That you can just be like, yeah, and I was like, oh, actually, if you say one word to these guys, they run away. It's like not actually like that. Wow. You know.
SPEAKER_00I did not, I did not understand that as a child.
SPEAKER_05Same.
SPEAKER_03And I'm not gay, but that's you know.
SPEAKER_05But even as a kid, you're like, this is this doesn't this shouldn't be an insult.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's I was like, this isn't insulting. Yeah. It's like these kids just they just want to say something at me. And it's like, yeah. It's good. I just started agreeing. That's kind of like the moral of of that particular anecdote. I just started agreeing with them.
SPEAKER_04Amazing. No.
SPEAKER_03Like they would they would say some stuff and I'd be like, yeah.
SPEAKER_05So you took the power of it away.
SPEAKER_03Wow. The beads just rolled down. And they're like, oh.
SPEAKER_05The Mardi Gras beads?
SPEAKER_03The Mardi Gras beads.
SPEAKER_05Wow.
SPEAKER_03They just they just rolled off. And they're like, oh, this isn't effective. I still got bullied. There were still attempts.
SPEAKER_05But you didn't give them the reaction that they wanted.
SPEAKER_03That's all that's all little bullies want. Yeah. They want that reaction. You know? And I'm not saying that as like a this is how I don't know.
SPEAKER_00No, no, no, no. But it's a very true. It's so it's so fascinating that you were able to realize that in the moment. That's really cool.
SPEAKER_05Um how does how are you receiving that thinking about younger wolf like potentially responding that way?
SPEAKER_00Um, I think probably you know, thinking about younger wolf, um, there was an era, there was quite several years where um my extended family um gave me the I think well-deserved nickname of pundit. Yeah, because I felt like I had to like add my opinion to pretty much anything that was. This is like age like nine to twelve, you know. So your opinion's like really well formed at that age. You really know, you really know what's going on.
SPEAKER_03You know better. You know better for sure than the adults. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um and so I'm thinking back to this and I'm like, why wouldn't I do that? And I was like, oh, because I was probably like too much hubris to like admit or to just be like, yeah, I could just say a thing that's not true to make this like just make this go away and it would be fine. I was like, no, I have to be right. You know, I have to like say the thing that is right to me to you know, whatever, validate my sense of self or something like that, you know? Um 100% valid though.
SPEAKER_05Like that would be, yeah, that wouldn't be effective.
SPEAKER_00No, no, I can tell you it was not effective. Yeah. It was not effective.
SPEAKER_05So you have these stickers.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So I made a bunch of these softened stickers and I've been putting them around. Um, although honestly, in my head, I was like, yeah, there's stickers everywhere. I can just add them to places where there's already stickers, and I've been looking for those places, and I'm like, there's no stickers anywhere. What the fuck is the problem?
SPEAKER_05Um, where are you looking? Because I see stickers.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think I'm not looking enough. You want to help me put some stickers out? Please, I would love that.
SPEAKER_05Can I have five?
SPEAKER_00You can have five.
SPEAKER_05Can I keep one?
SPEAKER_00Keep as many as you want. I have a hundred of them.
SPEAKER_05Okay. Haven't you gotten a sticker yet?
SPEAKER_03I haven't.
SPEAKER_00Alright, stickers for everyone.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, there's like signs and poles and stuff down topics.
SPEAKER_00Stick them around. Everybody needs to soften a little bit. I'll put one on the work truck. Hell oh my god, dude. Holy money. Fuck yeah. That's it. That'd be amazing.
SPEAKER_05Commentary.
SPEAKER_00I think I will.
SPEAKER_05Do it.
SPEAKER_00I think it's warranted. Yeah, moments it's necessary. You can't be hard all the time. You can't. You gotta call a doctor if that happens. Exactly.
SPEAKER_05And don't I know it?
SPEAKER_03Do you? Are you hard all the time?
SPEAKER_05Never not rock solid. So, Jack, what is the wonder quest for next time?
SPEAKER_03So I have like I said, I have two. Okay. Um, just in case one of them I'm not sure if it's been done. Okay, okay. But my first one was use an alternate form of transportation to get somewhere this week. Is this something that's been?
SPEAKER_00Definitely not. No one has done that.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Uh preferably something that's not already your secondary or tertiary way. Wow, a new mode of transportation to go somewhere. And something that's gonna take longer than another available option.
SPEAKER_05So not someone else's car, obviously.
SPEAKER_03Like not someone else's car. Like the the point is for it to be for it to take a while. For it to like not be and I I was almost like go to work this way because I had a really great experience um a few years ago when I just decided to start biking to work. Oh yeah. And I was like, this is this is lovely. Because I don't feel like I'm waking up, getting ready for work, getting in a vehicle to go to work, and then being at work. Yeah, it almost feels like there's this little thing for me in between like waking up and going to work. There's like this little journey that I get to take every morning.
SPEAKER_05How long was your ride?
SPEAKER_03It was it was really quick. This is like when I lived on Elgin and then work was on like third and Wilson adjacent. Yeah. So it was like yeah, it was like a 15-minute bike ride. Wow. And I like cross the river every like and it was like all downhill till you get to the river, and then I would like stop at that bridge by Miller's Landing and like kind of like drink some coffee, watch the people riding the wave, and like it sounds great. Wow. Give it like five minutes, and then I'd continue my little bike to work. And then even after I moved, I biked a few times. It was a bit less of a scenic drive, but it was still it was still a thing to break up the morning between like bracing for work and then being at work, and then like I'm getting ready for a bike ride, and then the destination of it is work, you know.
SPEAKER_05And then work probably felt better.
SPEAKER_03And work felt better.
SPEAKER_05And and then you had the w uh the bike ride after to look forward to.
SPEAKER_03Not always. Sometimes I kind of dreaded the bike ride. Like after like doing like physical work all day, there were and especially like sometimes there were like some late nights and it would be like dark. Oh, yeah. I'd be like, but but that that's also an important experience to have, I think.
SPEAKER_05The mornings sound really nice.
SPEAKER_03The mornings were really nice, and the even the evenings, like just because I was dreading the bike ride home like in the dark after a long day's work, sometimes it's like exactly what I needed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So like like once I was on my way, I was like, oh.
SPEAKER_05The cool breeze, the quiet.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I'm breathing clean air, I'm doing this. But I did I did make like a little side note, usually not your primary or your secondary or tertiary way of transport. Um, because I thought that would make it maybe a little more spicy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you should do something new.
SPEAKER_03Do something new, yeah. Like if you're accustomed to like either driving or biking to your engagements, yeah. Every you should roll or every day to the bar.
SPEAKER_00Roller skit. Longboard. Oh, there we go. Yeah, you could longboard to the gas station.
SPEAKER_05There's not a lot of natural grocers.
SPEAKER_00You could longboard over to Natty G, dude.
SPEAKER_03Rent one of those little scooters. Oh my god, I've never done that.
SPEAKER_00That's a good idea.
SPEAKER_03You know? Yeah. Take the bus.
SPEAKER_05Take the bus.
SPEAKER_03Just walk.
SPEAKER_05Jet ski.
SPEAKER_00Jet ski. Kayak. Take a helicopter. Thinking about pogo into the grocery store. Yeah, pogo.
SPEAKER_05Don't bite eggs.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah. Just do just do something that you wouldn't have done. Locomote in a new way. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Okay, I vote that one.
SPEAKER_00That one? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I think that sounds great. We haven't had a good like physical one in a while, actually. Yeah. Yeah. Where you gotta go out and do something. Well.
SPEAKER_05Hey, um, let's spin the wheel of wonder.
SPEAKER_00Indeed. Big questions. Ooh, big questions. What do you think limits your ability to change?
SPEAKER_05Wow. That's a banger.
SPEAKER_00This was not on the outline.
SPEAKER_05No, correct.
SPEAKER_03Yep. This one's uh off the dome. Ultimately, excuses that have become facts. Oh nice. You know, making it into being. Yes. The things we tell ourselves we can't are impossible or that does not fit into the routine, and then it just becomes that. You're like, oh.
SPEAKER_02That's it. That's how it is. Yeah. That's what it is.
SPEAKER_03I told myself that's what it was for so long, and it's become a fact, and now it's a truth. Now it's universal. But it was only ever told to myself in my brain, so it's not really real. But it's real enough to me to inhibit any deviation from a trajectory that's not not that yeah, it doesn't fit in that definition or world understanding kind of a thing.
SPEAKER_00That lie.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. You don't have to be in that box. Like you you made the box. You built the box. You know, and you're deciding to be in it, and you don't want to look outside of it because sometimes the box is comfy.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03Or the box is known. You know what all the walls look like. You know, you're like, yeah, this is how it is. And I can totally go about my my day-to-day life in these in this box and everything has been fine so far.
SPEAKER_00Do you like are there habits or things are like I like methods that you use to recognize those? Times when you're like, wait a second, I just chose this and I could choose something differently. Or like I don't actually have to be in here if I don't want to be.
SPEAKER_03I think sometimes there needs to be like I don't think I can provoke it. Someone has to point it out. Yeah. I don't think anybody can provoke like a a change like that when it's so deeply rooted and you're so accustomed to it, and it's like every day you're doing this thing this way. It's not until you get called out on it, and it's like, yeah, what are you doing? It's like, oh, yeah. What am I doing? Like I could totally, like that totally makes sense.
SPEAKER_05Or why do you believe that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you you you open the bot you open the lid and you're like, oh, there's actually nothing in there.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_03Built on nothing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know? I just convinced myself that's how it is, and that's how it's been. And then someone comes on.
SPEAKER_00It's I I find sometimes it's also possible that like it was true at one point in the past, right? It was sort of like maybe it wasn't like fixed fact, but it was like a an assessment of your cap capacity or capability or whatever. You're like, yeah, this is what I can do.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then you never really like go back and reassess it, but you change and grow over time, and then yeah, someone comes along and they're like, Hey, what about what if you did this? And you're like, Oh my god.
SPEAKER_04I love those moments.
SPEAKER_00That's incredible.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, the bo the box was built for a reason.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You know, and that reason's just not relevant anymore. Totally. And sometimes someone has to kind of hold your hand and be like, that's not the thing anymore. Like you don't need to be in there. It's cool. You could you could you could leave it? Look at all this. Look at this. Check this out. Isn't this better?
SPEAKER_05I was thinking about this for myself and my answer was that I just avoid certain things that I don't know how to that I don't want to deal with. But I think that excuses are probably I'm probably making excuses subconsciously and I'm just not aware of it.
SPEAKER_03I think that's like a very natural thing.
SPEAKER_05Like making a five-year plan. Yeah. I'd I'd rather be consumed by moss.
SPEAKER_03I mean, but it's like at the same like who needs to make a five-year plan? Um, I don't know.
SPEAKER_05Some people need to, I guess. I'm just not that kind of guy.
SPEAKER_03Do you know? I mean, it's so, you know, it's so traditional. You know? Ew. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Even making a six-month plan scares me as much as a five-year plan.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I understand it's because it could be like a limiting thing.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, like what if I can't achieve it? Then what's I'd rather not try.
SPEAKER_03You you are like, I am going to do this, and then you fail.
SPEAKER_05It's like too hard to try. I would really rather not.
SPEAKER_00That's what I was gonna say for me. Like, fear of failure is for sure the biggest limiter for me.
SPEAKER_03Why set myself up to fail? You know?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm like, well, I could try it, but like what if it doesn't work?
SPEAKER_03Just live in the moment. I think you're underestimating yourself. You know? Thanks. I think you can do it.
SPEAKER_05Thank you. You know? Maybe I just need to hear that a few more times. Because that's not what I'm telling myself of course.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, maybe you just gotta be kinder to yourself.
SPEAKER_05Thank you. And failure as they tell us in the gym, it's all about failure. Finding your finding your edge and then pushing past it. It's about it's about failing.
SPEAKER_03Failure is your friend.
SPEAKER_05Failure is your friend? It is.
SPEAKER_03If you make friends with failure, then you're never gonna fail. You're gonna be like, oh, I'm comfortable with this.
SPEAKER_05How do you make friends with failure?
SPEAKER_03By failing a bunch. And being like, it's okay because everyone.
SPEAKER_00Right, like the world didn't end because I didn't achieve what I thought I could achieve.
SPEAKER_03Everybody fails every day. And it's like, okay, I failed in this way. That's true. And you know what that means? I know if I were to do this thing again in this way, then I'm gonna fail. So I'm not gonna do that again.
SPEAKER_05People also succeed a lot every day.
SPEAKER_03People also succeed a lot every day.
SPEAKER_05And you know, the other thing is that you can't say I'm friends with success either. What's up?
SPEAKER_00If you don't, if you don't try, you know you're gonna fail. You miss a lot of things. Right, you're not gonna you're definitely not gonna take. If you don't give it a go, you're not gonna you know you're not gonna achieve it.
SPEAKER_05Wayne Gretzky.
SPEAKER_00Michael Scott. Michael Scott. Well, uh, on that note, should we uh take a little break? Yeah, breaky. All right. Well, come back next week for the uh other half of this conversation.
