SPEAKER_00 0:00

Last on the Wonder Pod.

SPEAKER_03 0:02

If I didn't want to see nudity, which isn't the case.

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Big nature getting in here just brainwashing me. Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_03 0:10

No, no, no, it's not.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Squirrel lobby, watch out.

SPEAKER_03 0:15

Wait, how is an alien different than a reptilian?

SPEAKER_04 0:17

Reptilians come from uh Lemuria or Moo.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Where's that?

SPEAKER_04 0:22

Atlantis.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Uh oh. Under the wall under the sea.

SPEAKER_04 0:25

Okay, okay, once upon a time.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

When you look at the night sky.

SPEAKER_04 0:28

Be prepared to think and feel in.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

There are no in the cottage.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

Not knowing what's out there. Welcome back to the Wonder Quest.

SPEAKER_03 0:45

Wonder Pod, as we call it.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Welcome back to the Wonder Pod.

SPEAKER_03 0:49

Too much hammered.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Yeah, you guys can't see that ever clearer.

SPEAKER_03 0:56

So, um, Mariah, you have said you are realizing you are the only millennial who is happy, and I am hella intrigued by this as a millennial who probably isn't so happy sometimes. So tell us everything about that.

SPEAKER_04 1:15

So yeah, like as a baseline, I'm pretty happy. Rude. Uh I yawned and looked at you at the same time. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Um and like most of the time?

SPEAKER_04 1:32

Yeah. Like like my baseline is just happy. And like I've been depressed. Like I lived in New Jersey for a couple years and I was so depressed. But I always knew, like, okay, well, when I move, I'm not going to be depressed. And then I moved and then I wasn't depressed because it's New Jersey that's depressing, not me. Um Yeah, so just situations like that where over time I've gathered that Wow. Another big yawn. Maybe I should go home. Or you asked this question. This whole thing was your idea. I'm not bored. Um yeah, basically what I've gathered is that millennials are all pretty like jaded and anxious. I'm anxious too, okay. And but like be anxious. Yeah, like I'm not like, oh no, uh, uh oh, all the time. Wow, a third hold on tight. I actually didn't feel like I was gonna fall backwards. I'm gesticulating too aggressively.

SPEAKER_03 2:41

Um yeah, I I think similarly.

SPEAKER_04 2:45

Yeah. And so, you know, people very often are saying, ah, with the state of the world, it's just like the world is on fire and the world is burning and and like everything's so depressing. And uh the unfortunate side effect of me being happy is also being uninformed. And so I get a lot of flack for that. And I'll, you know, like I just I don't keep up with news because it's not healthy for me. Like it's not healthy for human brains to have that much information about the world. It's like very unnatural. Um so yeah, I don't I don't pay attention to any of that on purpose.

SPEAKER_03 3:31

And you're also you're also off social media, correct?

SPEAKER_04 3:35

I don't have Instagram on my phone most of the time. Yeah. So basically, yeah, I have like very little exposure to any things.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Okay, but even outside of that, just like in your day-to-day life, like you're mostly just like, yeah, it's pretty okay. It's pretty good. I'm actually sorry, it's pretty good.

SPEAKER_04 3:56

I I'm like generally happy. Like the amount of mornings that I wake up and I'm like, oh, cool, I I get to be alive today and like go exist. Whoa. That's most of the time.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

Wacky.

SPEAKER_04 4:07

And right, and that's the thing, is like I've realized everyone else doesn't have that experience, and not trying to like be like self-righteous or like, oh yeah, I'm happy and so I'm better than you all. But but like sincerely I'm realizing, like, holy shit, like no one else is happy. Like, what is this about? And I think yeah, I think I've boiled it down to the exposure to news.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 4:32

Um, the amount that I let the current events affect my brain space. Like, so I'm like, cool, war, kids are dying. That's horrifying. Okay, well, I'm gonna just keep existing and do my thing. And I cannot do anything about that. I can maybe donate some money or like whatever. But like, what is within my realm of responsibility, and how can I feel good and productive with what I'm doing in the world? And then I just like rest easy with that and let that be enough. And so for me, that is working with kids and being able to impact them in positive ways, working with parents, making their lives better, and and also again, like not trying to be self-righteous, and I know that like uh like cringe talking about this because I feel yeah, self-righteous about it or something. But like the biggest thing is that just me being happy is in of itself another positive thing to put into the world. So I let myself have that because yeah, and like I can totally get into the modes where I'm like, oh, I'm not allowed to be happy because other people have it really bad. Or like like I feel guilty because you know, I my friend just got diagnosed with cancer, but like I'm fine and like I'm still happy. Like, am I allowed to be happy? And so I go through all those, but then I also recognize like at the end of the day, those thoughts aren't productive and those thoughts aren't like necessarily truth.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

Totally.

SPEAKER_04 6:14

And so that I think that's the other thing is like the self-talk and like the way that I interact with what my brain is saying all day.

SPEAKER_03 6:22

Have you been not uh consuming the news and the media for a long time?

SPEAKER_04 6:29

I stopped around 2021.

unknown 6:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:36

Was there something that cautalized it?

SPEAKER_04 6:38

Yeah, basically just like COVID and everything. I was just like, everyone is so depressed, and COVID was some of the best times of my life. And so it was around then that I was like, I can't, I cannot, you guys, I'm having a great time, and you all are like harsh in my mellow. And so, and obviously like Trump and everything, but like it's like a he he who shall not be named type of situation. I'm just like not even going there in the next hour. Um fine, fine, fine. Yeah, so so I think it was that. I was just like, I am actually really happy, I'm having a really good time, I'm vibing, I'm doing projects that I've always wanted to do that I've never like given myself time to do. And the fact that everyone else on the planet seems to be depressed is not helping. So I'm just gonna like keep doing my thing.

SPEAKER_01 7:29

Would you have you would you say you've always been able to describe yourself as a happy person? Or like mostly?

SPEAKER_04 7:36

Uh I tried being emo in middle school. So I'd like to listen to Lincoln Park and like look out the window of the bus to come to school.

SPEAKER_03 7:44

You're too bright-eyed to be emo.

SPEAKER_04 7:46

Yeah, I was just like, it's not it's not hitting, right? Yeah, it didn't it didn't work.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:53

I tried. And and I am a very emotional person. But yeah, um, like yeah, happy is the baseline.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

Wow, that's so that's like impossible for me to imagine.

SPEAKER_03 8:08

Yeah, same actually.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

But like so yeah, so just dispositionally you feel like you've always just kind of been like, yeah, life's okay, like that's pretty alright.

SPEAKER_04 8:17

Like or yeah, and I think I think another thing I wanted to share on that is that I have worked really hard in the last like basically since my brain fully developed at 25. So like in the last six years, I've worked really hard to change the way that I think. And when I talk to my friends, they'll be like, oh, but Mirah, it's just so easy for you. And I'm like, no, it's not. It's every single day like basically deprogramming myself. And I think that also we're programmed to be unhappy. Like that is what like media is and commercialism is and the like consumerism. Yeah, all of it. Ah yeah. So so the deprogramming goes deep. And uh, Mary, I think you said this in your podcast, but or the one that you were interviewed in. But um, I was 27 or 28 years old when I realized I could look in the mirror and not think bad thoughts. Nobody ever told me I was allowed to do that. I didn't know that you could just be like, I'm cute today. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, because every single time I look in the mirror, I'm like, ah, but like maybe I don't like the way my skin looks or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_03 9:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:42

Um, yeah. So so it's like That's radical, I'd say. Right. And so after having that be my reality for 27 or 28 years, to shift out of that is work. It's work to look in the mirror and be like, I like myself. Yeah, I look good.

SPEAKER_03 9:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:59

Or whatever. Like maybe I don't look good, but I I'm okay changing that takes a lot of work.

SPEAKER_03 10:05

Yeah. And doing it over and over and over and over and over.

unknown 10:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:08

I think that's a big part too, is just like not believing all of the thoughts that go through my head. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:17

Very cool. I think that's cool. You're really involved in the community. I'm thinking about how you're not um you're opting out of news that's not like very, very immediate. So do you feel like we'll we'll talk about this at some point, but you started a kickball team. Um you know a lot of people and you're very outgoing. I mean our first kickball practice, I I don't know if you were there. Were you there? She c she saw someone walking along on uh along the sidewalk who she had met at some event previously, and she climbed over the fence and talked to them. She was awesome. That's amazing. Yeah, so I'm thinking about how yeah, do you feel like extra connected to this community as a result of you focusing just on this community?

SPEAKER_04 11:18

I've never thought about it that way, but I think that that does go hand in hand with what I'm saying about like as individuals, we have um what what is the phrase for you? It's not like circle of responsibility, it's uh sphere. Oh is it sphere?

SPEAKER_02 11:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:36

I was so close. Sphere of responsibility? Yeah. Right? I think so. Yeah, so I think it's that. It's just like in the the concept that okay, what can I control?

SPEAKER_01 11:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:50

And it is just myself and the people I interact with. It's not what's happening in the war wherever wars are happening, and it's not who's president wherever presidents are president. I can't control those things. Right. And so I think that because I am more focused on just like my own circle, I think that that ends up being me very involved and caring about what's going on in the community. But I didn't do that on purpose and I've never actually thought about it that way.

SPEAKER_03 12:25

Maybe a natural byproduct. Yeah. What do you think about the future? Yours and the future of those around you. Well, and the time not around you.

SPEAKER_04 12:34

Time is wibbly wobbly.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

The future doesn't exist. Doesn't exist yet.

SPEAKER_04 12:41

Uh the future exists as much as our past exists, but we're we're not going there. Yeah, I mean, in my future I plan to go live on a commune and not be around a lot of people. I loved COVID because I got to be alone for months. And I always thought I was extroverted, and after that, I was like, oh no, no, no, I'm not. Like I was kind of programmed to think I was extroverted.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

Interesting.

SPEAKER_04 13:21

But yeah, I would cancel plans with people during COVID just so I could keep being alone at home.

SPEAKER_03 13:27

But being on a commune, you depend on your people you're with.

SPEAKER_04 13:32

Right. But you don't have to go interact with them all the time. Yeah. I I imagine it being like a very large property and everybody gets their space and everything is commu communal. So like you can go work in the greenhouse if you want to. You can go like work with the horses if you want to. And you can go do those things and interact with other people or not.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

Yeah. My my aunt and uncle lived in a in a community like that for a while, like two years. It was not a good fit for them. But I think it is it was challenging to maintain the community when there is like that level of optionality in the construction, right? When like to have that much individual autonomy integrated with some sort of like forced focus community. As a contrast to like a traditional commune where like there really isn't a lot of individuality available. Um yeah, it was interesting. It it it was also like, yeah, I don't know. It did not I mean it definitely not appealing to me personally, but um it also was kind of like a strange like it that one in particular is strange hybrid, I thought. Um but it would be interesting to see, like, have you ever looked into that to like find out about communities like that that exists where there is like individuals, oh sorry, like you have your own house sort of thing, and then there's like communal space.

SPEAKER_04 14:58

Yeah. Um yes and no. And I'm also the way that I am thinking about it is like you don't I'm not expecting anybody to be there all the time. Okay. So it's more like you, it's it's almost like more of a financial contribution of like we all get this space, but then yeah, if you want to like live in New York City nine months out of the year and just go there during the summer, cool, I don't care. Like, I'm gonna maintain the space, but then also if I want to leave town, I'm gonna I'm gonna be able to do that too. So it's not gonna be like traditional commune. However, I do have plans to be a cult leader.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Oh, nice. What's your cult gonna be about?

SPEAKER_04 15:40

Uh whatever it says on Dr. Bronner's bottles. Oh my gosh. Taking that one over the biggest leader. Yeah. I don't know what it says. God, one. There are way too many words on there. I don't know what it says. When I'm pooping, I look at my phone, not at soap anymore. Yeah, all one. I don't know what else. One all that's those are just the biggest words. So yeah, but I I think I would be a great quote leader. And so if I have to choose a creed, it's gonna be whatever Dr. Bronner says. So that's like kind of a like one aspect of my commune, and the other aspect of my commune is my post-apocalypse plan, which is again, I am the matriarch and I am uh organizing other people to come together and make this system functional because I am telling them how the system could work, but they're all doing like the actual work.

SPEAKER_03 16:35

Okay, that segues beautifully into our chat about control.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

That's true. I can see how that could be a fantasy for you. Um yeah, okay, so the other day, um uh Mariah, you were tack we were we were texting about the how to name the kickball team.

SPEAKER_03 16:56

Um So Mariah started a kickball team this spring.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 17:00

And we are both part of it.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

We're both part of it. There was a poll in the group chat about various name options because we had picked one initially, and then somehow some other team had picked the exact same name. And so we were polling what the new name would be. And I think there were two names that were kind of tied up. And Mariah, um, you were texting me about it, and you were like, okay, look, uh, I kind of think it should be this, but I don't want to be like too controlling over like the way the team works and like what's happening, and I don't want to be like pushing too hard. And I mean I was like, fucking, look, somebody's gotta run the show, you know, and I think you could just like do it. But you expressed that you had some reservations about be like pushing too hard to be in control of in this context. Um, and so I was curious where that comes from and like what your exploration of your cum, you know, your comfort with lack of control or your relationship with control is like where you're at with exploring that right now.

SPEAKER_04 18:04

That's a great question. We should ask all three of my new therapists.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

Team effort, team effort.

SPEAKER_04 18:12

Um overall, I'm sure that the lack of control has to do with having a big family and having essentially no control over anything that we're all doing ever. How many siblings are we talking? I have five siblings.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

Oh wow, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:28

Um where are you in the lineup? Fifth. Whoa. Uh yeah, so I bet some of it has to do with that, but obviously that's kind of just the easy out. It's like it's because of how I was raised. I don't know. Um I find that when my house is clean, I feel more control over my life.

SPEAKER_03 18:47

Totally.

SPEAKER_04 18:48

You know, stuff like that. So I think that's some extension of that. Um, and I think that there is an aspect, you know, you know how as an adult, you realize that the way that you're thinking about things isn't the way everyone's thinking about that thing.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:06

So it's one of those things where I'm like, oh, everybody likes making decisions. Everybody likes and so like in the last few years, I'm like, oh, not everyone likes that. And then that makes me realize that the way that I make decisions can be adjusted depending on who I'm with. And so, and I think that's really fun because I I like I like, you know, brain manipulation tactics.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

And so, for instance, on my poll, perfectly I was about to say like it's wonderful.

SPEAKER_04 19:39

Like brains are like very simple, or can be. And so on my poll, I put the name that I liked third out of the five because psychologically the third option is most likely to get votes. Nice, no matter what it is, and it worked. Whoa. And so for the first We're so predictable, it's hilarious. And then also psychologically, if you know that other people are voting for something, you're more likely to vote for it. And so I think that also picked up on the name I liked.

SPEAKER_03 20:09

I voted for the matriarchy, and I was so disappointed that it didn't win.

SPEAKER_04 20:14

So d I don't think you were there when I explained why I don't didn't think that was the best name. Whoa, no, I didn't.

SPEAKER_03 20:19

I wasn't thinking about it.

SPEAKER_04 20:20

I really like the name a lot, but our team isn't that good. Oh my god. Our team, to be fair, is a bunch of people that have never played team sports before, never played kickball before.

SPEAKER_03 20:35

Just for fun, one and we're in a just for fun league.

SPEAKER_04 20:38

And I don't have expectations that anybody's going to be good at it. I want them to understand the game and feel comfortable and confident.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

We want to give the matriarchy a good look, a good game. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:48

And so I think the matriarchy would be a badass name if we were just an on-point, totally impeccable team.

SPEAKER_03 20:56

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_04 20:57

Uh, but with where our team is, which is totally fine, I didn't think that that was the most appropriate name, and I thought something a little sillier would work.

SPEAKER_03 21:09

I really liked Talon Strike.

SPEAKER_04 21:11

Yeah, Talon Strike was great. I really liked Apex Vortex. Um but you know, here we are.

SPEAKER_03 21:18

Mariah sent me a list of like 40 names.

SPEAKER_04 21:21

Uh the nice thing about my work is that since I hang out with babies all day, I'm able to use my brain in other ways.

SPEAKER_03 21:30

Yeah, you have to.

SPEAKER_04 21:31

And so I spent an entire work day brainstorming possible kickball names.

SPEAKER_03 21:38

So anyway, back to brain manipulation and control.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

It seems totally counterintuitive and crazy to me that you are most comfortable having a lot of control, and you also find yourself to be like a pretty happy person. Because normally I would think those would be like polar opposites. Because you can never have all Control, right? I mean it's impossible, right? If you're trying to if you want more control, right, you're never gonna get there. And yet you describe yourself as being pretty happy. Like how do the how do those things coexist for you?

SPEAKER_04 22:12

I think we need to put into context like what control really is for me.

SPEAKER_02 22:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 22:18

Because yeah, like in my home, I like control. I like you know, expired things to not be in the fridge, or I like the trash taken out if it's full. You know, like basic controlling things that my brothers would be like, why are you so intense about that? I'm like, it just makes sense. Like, why wouldn't you do it that way? Right. And but then like, you know, I hang out with babies.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

And sometimes they are notoriously difficult to control.

SPEAKER_04 22:45

Exactly. And so I feel like my work really helps me sit with the lack of control and analyze how I'm gonna respond to it. So one great example stop fucking interrupting my yawning. Okay, also the sunset's a little pretty out there. Wow. So the other yeah, something that happens often is that a baby will love applesauce one day, and then I'll give it to them the next day, and they'll like smack it out of my hand, be like, this is the worst thing I've ever had in baby language. And I'll get so freaking annoyed. I'm just like, oh my god, you just ate this yesterday. Like, I know you like applesauce.

SPEAKER_03 23:29

You need to present it to them as the third option.

SPEAKER_04 23:32

That's a green idea. Start programming them. So, so yeah, I think like, and sometimes I let it get to me, and I'm like, I'm not gonna let them win. This is the only thing I'm gonna feed them if they don't freaking eat the applesauce and they can be hungry then. Which is pick rocks, which is also for the record, how you raise a kid that's not a picky eater. For anybody that's actually wondering about me abusing children, I'm not. Um But then sometimes I'm like, well, I know you're gonna take a better nap if you just eat, and I think I'm just gonna let it go, dump out this applesauce, and get you something you do want to eat. Yeah. And just like be okay with that. And so, like, probably peaches. But no, straight up, like, I have to like sit there and take a deep breath and remind myself that like it's actually not a big deal, and this baby is not trying to fight me. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 24:31

It's not personal.

SPEAKER_03 24:32

I will argue, yes, it's hard to control a baby. But yes, they are trying to fight me. But no, but you have power over them because you're the adult and they're the baby. So you do have something.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

But they have a lot of power over you too.

SPEAKER_03 24:48

Well, right, and it's just like what I just said. You can do whatever you want.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

But they can be really annoying.

SPEAKER_03 24:52

You're bigger, you're stronger, you're like I don't want to fist fight a baby though. No, but I'm like saying that you do have c more control, much more control over them than they have over you. Totally. Oh, sure, sure.

SPEAKER_04 25:05

But that's also what I'm saying. Like, I can just I can be like, okay, whatever. If you don't want the app slots, then don't eat. And I I sometimes do that. But then sometimes I decide, like, you know what, it's better for me and my day if they take a better nap, and if they're gonna take a good nap, they need to eat, and that's when I pivot, right?

SPEAKER_03 25:22

Well, I'm saying maybe one reason you enjoy hanging out with babies is that you can control them.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

You can run the show.

SPEAKER_04 25:31

Have you ever tried to control a baby? Yes. I had a baby shit five times during my shift the other day. Five times. I could not control that baby. That is active. Very, very active, annoying to me.

SPEAKER_03 25:48

That's a lot.

SPEAKER_04 25:49

It's a lot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:50

I'm just pointing out the power dynamic.

SPEAKER_04 25:52

No, that's irrelevant. And no, it is, especially with toddlers and stuff. It is, yeah, I can see that control like becoming more of a fun thing. Um, but yeah, I think like in general, my dynamic with kids is more like wanting to not program them.

SPEAKER_03 26:13

Of course not.

SPEAKER_04 26:14

And so I think a part of that is also like being a little less controlling of them. Even though I think if you ask a lot of the families I work with, I think that overall they would say that I have a good amount of control.

SPEAKER_03 26:30

I don't know. I grew up in an environment where kids were supposed to be like their wills were supposed to be broken. Yeah. And that they like the parent yeah though their wills were supposed to be broken. Instead of um I have a friend named Andrea who has three children and I learned a lot about parenting from her. Um she has uh one child who used to have a lot of anger when he was like two, and in my house growing up, you just get a spanking, you know, like, hey dude, you know, get a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

You're not allowed to have anger.

SPEAKER_03 27:15

Yeah, like whereas she was saying we don't know why he's so angry, we've only known him for two years or something like that. And it was really novel to me, very different than how I was raised. And she taught me something really big about like inviting a child to like become themselves and to teach you who they are instead of shaping them into who you think they should be.

SPEAKER_04 27:44

Pretty radical. I like that a lot. One of my favorite neuroscientist guys who talks about working with kids as well, he was like, Before you say no, ask yourself why not. And that one hits because so often, especially like I'm sure you've had this feeling where like they're like, Can I play with Play Doh? And you're like, No, and they're like, Why? And it's like it's because it's gonna be messy. I'm gonna have to pick it out of the carpet later. Like, I don't want you to, yeah, but there's actually not a reason.

SPEAKER_03 28:16

I'm just not in the mood for that, and I don't care.

SPEAKER_04 28:19

Or and so I think just that quote of like ask yourself why not has changed the no for me into like, okay, how can I make this request of theirs something I'm okay with too? So with a play-doh one, I'm like, I go move a rug from the kitchen or whatever, yeah, and I'm like, play on the ground right there, then cool, whatever. That way I can clean it up later, and it's not a big deal to me. Because like, why am I saying no? It's not because I don't want you to play play-doh, it's because I don't want to clean it up. Like you know, like I have them clean it up, but like I don't want to pick up the tiny pieces and like whatever. So so yeah, I I totally hear that of just like how are we letting kids explore being kids? And I think that's also ties into what we were talking about with the programming, is like so much of our programming is that exact thing. How did you phrase that?

SPEAKER_01 29:14

Being finding out who they are, or like no the opposite thing, like breaking their will.

SPEAKER_04 29:19

Yeah, breaking their will.

SPEAKER_03 29:20

And that might be from the Bible, potentially.

SPEAKER_04 29:22

Oh, I'm sure it is.

SPEAKER_03 29:24

Like you're most bad things are.

SPEAKER_04 29:27

Yeah, yeah. Um actually spell backwards again. Um yeah, no, I think those things go hand in hand.

SPEAKER_03 29:37

Yeah, I think potentially like how I was raised was that you're inherently unclean and you're not acceptable to God unless you do certain things. Whereas now I believe you're pure as a kid. I don't really know at what point you stopped being pure. I was asking myself that this week. Like at what at what point does someone stop being pure?

SPEAKER_01 30:08

Yeah, because you said that the other day. You were like, yeah, I feel like children are pure. I said that. And I was like, huh, interesting. Compared to what?

SPEAKER_03 30:14

Well, until when, actually, I think. Yeah. I like that a lot. Yeah, at what point do we like it?

SPEAKER_01 30:20

Like, what would that even be what does that even mean to be pure?

SPEAKER_03 30:22

Like, I think that like we're not responsible for ourselves, also. And so at what point do we start becoming responsible?

SPEAKER_04 30:29

But also, the impurity also is probably starting at some point that an adult has negatively influenced them. Of course. Yeah. Or potentially another kid, but probably an older kid, probably.

SPEAKER_03 30:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:46

Probably somebody that knows better. Yeah. But then what does knowing better mean? Right, and when does that start?

SPEAKER_03 30:51

And it's probably different for everybody.

SPEAKER_01 30:53

Some people never get there.

SPEAKER_03 30:55

Yikes. But then does that mean they're never supposed to be held responsible? That's a good question. I think they're just in jail or something. Right. Just super easy solution. Just lock them up, move on.

SPEAKER_04 31:09

No, like actually though, people that don't have a comprehension of if what they're doing is okay are probably the same people that like can't comprehend that, like, oh, if I go steal, I'm gonna get caught by police or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 31:23

I think that's probably a fraction of the people who end up in jail. But I think there are some people who end up in jail who don't deserve to be there. Oh, for sure. Yeah. But I feel like that's a whole other topic. It is.

SPEAKER_01 31:34

Or people who know better and do it anyway, right? I mean, we all do that sometimes. Yeah, true, true. You're like, this is not the thing I'm supposed to do, and I'm just gonna do it because I feel like it.

SPEAKER_03 31:42

Yeah. Any more thoughts on control? Either of you?

SPEAKER_01 31:48

Um, okay, I was curious about because I feel like uh Mariah, you have pretty strong opinions, uh, which I appreciate.

SPEAKER_03 31:56

What?

SPEAKER_01 31:57

As a fellow strong opinion have. I mean, Mary, you have pretty strong opinions too, I feel like sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 32:01

I know I don't.

SPEAKER_01 32:02

Um and I I feel like I sometimes struggle with like I wanna like I care about my opinions, right? And I care about the way that what I think of things and the way I feel. And I also want to make space for other people who have like less certainty in their opinions or less conviction. That's a good word for it. Um and I'm curious in your journey to like be more comfortable with less control, if you've kind of like uh wrangled with that at all about how to like because it's one thing to be like, okay, I'm gonna have less control because like there's an obvious benefit to me. Like it's like okay, it's nice to just like not care about what happens, right? To be okay with all the outcomes. Um but then the there's sort of like there's obviously value to being able to maintain control over a situation or to like be the one in control when no one else wants to be, you know. But then I also worry about you know, squashing people's perspective. So I'm curious if you've if you've grappled with that at all in your in your journey.

SPEAKER_04 33:11

Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts just as you were talking about that. Um one of them is again, for work all day, I am trying to figure out what a three-year-old wants. So they're talking about a bunch of other shit, and I'm supposed to like, and I'm really good at this, I pinpoint exactly what they're actually wanting and needing, and I can do that for them, like help them get there. So with adults, I have a lot less patience for that. And so I I usually don't do this with other people, but usually my family gets the brunt of this, which is if I'm like, hey, brother, do you want to like go grab a beer with me? And he's like, uh, I don't I don't know. I just got home and I'm like, oh my god, tell me yes or no. Like I am, I've spent all day with a toddler doing exactly what you're doing. Tell me yes or no, or tell me that you need a minute to think about it, but like I can't don't do this for you.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

I don't need to join in the decision-making process.

SPEAKER_04 34:11

Or I just say, like, okay, sounds like a no. And then that'll like usually make their brain like tell them if they actually want to involve as adults.

SPEAKER_03 34:19

Sometimes impatience really brings clarity. I I'm in defense of impatience. I have to be. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

I'm trying to be more impatient.

SPEAKER_04 34:28

Another thought is that um oh my god, the frogs. Oh, I love that. Uh yeah, so another thought on that is that yeah, basically realizing as an adult how helpful it is to actually just make a decision about something and how other adults, what I've been learning, usually don't really care that much. And then if they do, I I think I'm getting pretty good at being like, hey, so like, how are you feeling about this thing? Or I'll I'll tell them what my decision is and be like, how does that feel to you? Yeah. Or whatever. Like, what do you think of that?

SPEAKER_01 35:12

But do you ever worry about like I have a lot of fear about like, oh, they're just going along because I'm too pushy?

SPEAKER_04 35:19

That's a possibility, but this is also part of the deprogramming, is that at the end of the day, I can't be responsible for them not speaking up. You're not pushy.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

I feel like I can be pushy.

SPEAKER_04 35:30

Okay. I think everybody could be pushy.

SPEAKER_03 35:31

I don't experience you as pushy.

SPEAKER_04 35:33

You're I have been pushed around by you for this entire podcast.

SPEAKER_03 35:38

So the opinions you're searching are typically like really broad, or they're just about you. Typically, you're not telling people what they should be doing. So you're not pushy. And you saying like this is how I see this situation isn't pushy. Yeah, I guess I just feel like there are times where like you're a pundit, but you're not like a nosy, you're a not you're not a nosy pundit.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

I think that part of the reason that I do so much by myself is because I'm worried about pushing other people around, and if it's just me, then I don't have to worry about that.

SPEAKER_03 36:18

Really? Is that why you go into the desert by yourself?

SPEAKER_01 36:20

Sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 36:21

Thanks for telling me that.

SPEAKER_04 36:22

That sounds ideal. That's also why I want to be alone forever. If I'm alone, I can't push people away.

SPEAKER_03 36:29

Is it lonely?

SPEAKER_01 36:30

Yeah. Actually, well, typically I don't have the I worry about you over there in that chair.

SPEAKER_04 36:36

It's it was just the rug.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

Give you a helmet. Just in case. Tell me. Um, yeah, I um actually this last trip at the beginning of April when I went to the desert was like really the first time. I think the first time I've like consciously been lonely on a solo camping trip. Like I used to do it a lot. I don't do it as much now. But that was the first time I was like, actually, I'm kind of lonely.

SPEAKER_03 37:01

You were with friends and you left. And then they departed. Then you felt lonely.

SPEAKER_01 37:04

Correct. Like the next morning. Um this is actually a similar time back to our book and movie conversation. I was like, oh. Like, I I I could just leave.

SPEAKER_03 37:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

Like I I could just I could just go like I don't have to like I don't have to like stick out my loneliness because I made a decision three days ago that only affects me. You know what I mean? Like it's like I could just leave.

SPEAKER_03 37:28

And so then what did you do?

SPEAKER_01 37:29

So I left.

SPEAKER_03 37:30

Oh you did I didn't expect that.

SPEAKER_04 37:34

I was like, oh, you just sat there with your loneliness and you really explored it. No, I just left.

SPEAKER_00 37:39

I could just not. I could just Good for you. I could just I don't have to sit and suffer.

SPEAKER_03 37:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:44

I I could do enough of that, you know? Like um, yeah, I mean I took a like a long, you know, roundabout way back. Yeah, I was also worried about the weather, but you know, I was also like, I could I don't have to just like be uncomfortable for the sake of toleration, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 38:02

Like I could just I'm sorry to hear that sometimes you being alone is because you're worried that you're going to be perceived as too pushy.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

Well, yeah, it's a bit of that, and it's also just like um I because that has been like a status for me for a long time, right? Like I don't have a lot of practice, and so it's it's easier for me to like do things, execute things a lot of times by myself because I'm just not as practiced on like how to collaborate?

SPEAKER_03 38:32

Yeah, you're very collaborative in this project.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

Yeah, well, this has been a long time. I mean, we've worked on it for a long time, you know, and we were friends for a long time before that, which helped. But I mean, we've been you know, working on this product for like a year and a half, basically.

SPEAKER_03 38:45

And we did we were in a band before this.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

We were in a band.

SPEAKER_03 38:47

And it's called Crab Meat and the Broken Legs.

SPEAKER_04 38:51

I love that. I also just re-watched a video of me breaking a live crab in half.

SPEAKER_01 38:56

Oh my god, a live crab?

SPEAKER_04 38:58

I can show it to you.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

Why did you do that?

SPEAKER_03 39:01

Because But you won't eat baby animals. Make that make sense.

SPEAKER_04 39:04

Uh I can tell you why, because I will always try something. Okay. And I went even a live crab. I went.

SPEAKER_01 39:12

Wait, were you eating the crab raw?

SPEAKER_04 39:14

We ate no, we ate it cooked later, but in order to kill them, you smash them in half.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

I've never heard of that.

SPEAKER_04 39:21

Me neither. I thought you was alive instead. My dad's friends are very fucked up. That no, I think that's way more fucked up. At least if you crack them right in half, you're just like, they just die instantly. If you do it right. I didn't. Oh, so the video's a little rough, but no, it's fine. Um was there blood?

SPEAKER_02 39:38

They don't have blood.

SPEAKER_04 39:39

Not really.

SPEAKER_03 39:40

I just was wondering.

SPEAKER_04 39:41

There's like a tiny bit, and I think it came out of its brain hole.

SPEAKER_03 39:44

Was it red?

SPEAKER_04 39:45

I can show you the video after this. What I assume is where their brain is. Anyway, so yeah, just kind of funny timing.

SPEAKER_03 39:55

Well, um, hey, do you have a closing quote for us?

SPEAKER_04 39:59

Yeah, it's actually really topical because of something Wolf just said, but hold on, let me try to remember what it was. Um this friend of mine told it to me a long time ago in my influential years. And I live by it. Uh when I started deprogramming, yeah. Yeah. This is like one of the most badass, amazing women, strongest women I've ever come into contact with. And she said, I reserve the right to change my mind. The fact that we are all so stuck. Just because you grew up Christian doesn't mean you have to keep believing in God. Just because you have been a Democrat your whole life doesn't mean that you can like can't change that, like, and make a different decision.

SPEAKER_03 40:48

Just because you grew up socialized as a man doesn't mean you have to continue doing that.

unknown 40:53

Right.

SPEAKER_03 40:53

Being a man.

SPEAKER_04 40:54

You you can do whatever you want. You can do whatever you want. And I think like you can do whatever you want makes sense to to adults, yeah. But I think the biggest thing is like the social um consequence of changing your mind. And I want to empower everyone to do that with more confidence and just be like, hey, yeah, I really liked Pepsi for the last decade, but I think I'm a coke guy now.

SPEAKER_03 41:22

And that's what was my personality, and that's what people expected. And now get with the program.

SPEAKER_04 41:26

Right. And that's the thing is like if everybody becomes more okay with us changing our minds, I think we're gonna get to a better place. Like, yeah, yeah. Like, I don't hold I don't know, if if somebody voted for Trump or something and is just like, yeah, I feel like he's doing a bad job, I'm not gonna be like, oh, you fucking asshole. I'm like, oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:45

I mean, I am gonna be that in my head for at least a little bit of time.

SPEAKER_04 41:48

We're all a little judgy, okay? But yeah, so I reserve the right to change my mind and give other people the grace and debate. To change their minds too. Yes. And even if that's maybe not congruent with what you're thinking, still the change is good. And like it's all it's all flowing. So yeah, that's that's my big thing. Also, this one isn't my quote. This is from Ah, maybe I shouldn't say it. I'm not sure. I should say it. Um, this is from somebody I know, and it's trademarked. Who cares?

SPEAKER_01 42:28

No rules 2026.

SPEAKER_04 42:30

So you can't take it. Uh happiness is not a virtue, and anger is not a sin. And he told me that recently, and I was like, holy shit, and that has stuck in my brain in such a good way. And I think especially those of us that were raised religious had a similar experience. And you were talking about this earlier with the spankings. It's like, you're you're upset about something, get the get get it out of your system. I mean, spank it a little bit and like go to your room, come back happy.

SPEAKER_03 43:06

Yeah, exactly. And submissive and like get in line with what I need you to do. Yeah, yeah. I really like um my brother is raising two kids with his wife, and there is space for those kids to have curiosity about any topic as far as I can tell. And the the whole family just talks very openly, it seems like, about whatever they want to talk about. And I really like that. It's really cool for a kid to grow up not feeling like they have to tiptoe around certain subjects. Totally. Or like they can yeah, like they can just take up space.

SPEAKER_01 43:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:49

I love that.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

Wow. Well, Mariah, thank you so much for being a wonderful time.

SPEAKER_03 43:58

This is so much fun. Thanks for sharing. Your time.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

And your thoughts and your emotional space.

SPEAKER_04 44:05

Yeah, I'll consider this therapy session number one of four over the next two weeks. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

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SPEAKER_03 44:27

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SPEAKER_01 44:34

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SPEAKER_03 44:45

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SPEAKER_01 44:47

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SPEAKER_03 44:48

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SPEAKER_01 44:49

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SPEAKER_03 44:53

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SPEAKER_01 45:00

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unknown 45:02

Bye.