SPEAKER_02 0:00

Last week on Wonder Pod. We got lost. And I got really scared. And I was like, we're gonna have to spend the night out here. There's coyotes. We don't have enough berries. And then we saw my dad like ride along the riding lawnmower, like a hundred feet away. I totally got into fire on accident. I took a job as a fuels technician with the National Park Service because that's what we call firefighters. I showed up for work and they were like, okay, now you go to fire school. And I was like, what? I'm a fuels technician. And they're like, you're a firefighter. And I was like, what did you think your job was? I thought I was gonna be like pumping gas. Like, maybe like I mean, could have been. In a lot of ways, I tell people that I was like raised by fire.

SPEAKER_03 0:45

When you look at the night sky.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Be prepared to think and feel in.

SPEAKER_03 0:50

There are no forbidden.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Not knowing what's out there. You ready to let the dogs out? Let's do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:01

Well, it's been a whole week, guys. Welcome back to the show. Pew-piew, pew-piew.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

We're here with Kai.

SPEAKER_03 1:09

We are here with Kai. Hello, hello. Okay, Kai. Talk us through your experience of gender evolution and exploration.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_03 1:20

And this is a gigantic question. So just uh tell us what comes to mind first and we'll take it from there.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

Okay. Well, I guess like to frame it, when I think about my life, uh I think about the fact that I have in some ways come out three times. And in the past, I've kind of viewed that as like a bit of like a maybe a sexuality journey. But now where I'm at looking back on it, I view it more as a gender journey in some ways. Interesting. So to like break that down, I'm born a fab human, signed female at birth, uh, grew up in this like rural um community, grew up religious, uh, and yet came out at 14 and was like, hey folks, really actually just hey mom at the time. Uh I think I'm gay. And she was like, You do watch a lot of Ellen Degenerates. I was like, But like to be fair, growing up, like that's the only queer person I knew. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, you're right, I do.

SPEAKER_03 2:39

Uh and did she have a nice response to that?

SPEAKER_02 2:44

Oh, she told me in the moment that uh she loved me, but that she couldn't accept that.

SPEAKER_03 2:53

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 2:53

And that has since come way around.

SPEAKER_03 2:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

Um, but at the time, not totally what you want to hear. Of course not. A young human who's Of course not.

SPEAKER_03 3:02

Any any age, really.

SPEAKER_02 3:03

Yeah, totally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

But especially, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

Yeah. Um, yeah. And then yeah, I like fast forwarding, like, went on, continued living my life uh as this like queer what I thought to be a fab human at the time. Um, and I think that's in a lot of ways because I I was never exposed to gender diversity. Like growing up in the 90s and early 2000s, like I didn't know there was anything but the binary.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

Uh it literally wasn't until I was probably in college that I was like, oh, there's trans people.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:45

Yeah. Um, but even then I didn't really have a good idea what that was. And I feel like uh with even within the queer community, and even still today in some ways, like oftentimes the trans community is just not super understood. Um, I think that's changed a lot from when I first came out, but regardless, fast forwarding, uh my second kind of big step on that journey was when I was 30. And I was like, you know, I've never felt AFAB. I've never felt like a woman, I've never identified with that. Maybe I'm non-binary. Um so I sat my whole family down at once this time at 30 years old. And I was like, hey everybody, I'm non-binary. And they were like, what's that? And I was like, fair, I just figured this uh this out, like within the last, I don't even know, a couple of years.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:49

Um, so I just explained it. I was like, I don't really feel uh like I fit into the binary boxes of like male or female. And my dad actually, who's uh still a deacon in our church, maybe he's he's got like a fancier title now, actually, that I can't remember. But uh he said something really sweet when I told them that he said, Yeah, you never really fit well in a box. He's like, This doesn't surprise me, which was like pretty, pretty nice to hear. Uh so that was roughly six years ago, and I was kind of going through my early 30s, as like, yeah, I'm non-binary, and this is great, and um changed my pronouns, they them, and uh had a lot of support and like built a stronger queer community here in Central Oregon, which felt really nice. Um started spending more time with uh my best friend and and her partner who's trans. Um and then I probably like two years ago, I was like, maybe I'm not non-binary, maybe instead I'm actually more trans masque. And but that to me felt really scary. Sure for whatever reason. Like it was like I'm like committing to a gender, and I had just convinced myself that like I didn't want to be committed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh but irregardless, um I ended up getting top surgery last year, and like after I got top surgery, I was like, oh no, this is like it. Like, this is euphoria, this is like the body I want to be living in. And then I was like, I want it all. I was like, like, I want I want testosterone, I want a beard, I want my voice to drop, which it has.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

I noticed when you came in. I was like, wow, big difference.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

It's been wild for only having been four months. Yeah. But yeah, I'm like now in like pretty squarely my future I see as like a he him uh male identifying individual. But then like the question is like, what is gender? I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 7:00

Dude, I was just gonna ask, what does gender mean to you? And can you even answer that?

SPEAKER_02 7:04

I I don't know. It's hard. It's like to me, gender is like how does somebody compare to what society wants them to be in some ways? Like it's such a social construct, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. And I having been on this journey for some time, I don't, I honestly, Mary, I don't know that I can answer that question.

SPEAKER_03 7:29

I know, I can't right now.

SPEAKER_02 7:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

Um, but I know it's good in my body. Yeah, yeah. Like, uh, yeah, like when oh, this is gonna embarrass her, but like when my girlfriend says, like, you're gonna be a really good dad to our kid. Like that is me, like euphoric in my body. And that like just feeling of at-homeness. Um I don't care how someone identifies uh, you know, non-binary, gender queer, gender-diverse, trans, whatever, as long as they get to feel that feeling in their body, that's that's what matters. So like that's so fuck the rest of it, I guess. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:15

What a beautiful thing to hear.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

Yeah. I don't I don't have a good answer otherwise.

SPEAKER_03 8:20

That's a great answer.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Indeed. Yeah, it's been it's been a journey, especially in the fire space too. I bet I've always been a little bit of a power down, like being a female in fire, yeah, is super underrepresented. It's like less than one in ten. And then being a non-binary person in fire, everyone was like, What? You don't understand grammar? And I was like, no, actually, you don't understand grammar. Uh and now this summer will be my first time out on the line with like this like scraggly facial hair. I'm starting to grow. Um, and I yeah, I'm like moderately concerned with how that will be received, but really, yeah, I'm a little nervous about it for sure. I bet it's like a very like macho, uh often in like type A culture at times. Yeah. And I learned how to fill that in like my like yeah, in all the stages of my journey. When I was going she, her, when I was going they them, I like filled that. And I feel like in some ways, now that I'm falling into my true gender, gender, and air quotes, like I'm also I feel more free to explore like being flamboyant, like all sides of me for some reason.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

Uh because you don't have to be like, okay, I need to fit this. Totally. Like, I need to make sure I'm not too feminine behavioring and whatever.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

I can just be whatever I want to be. Uh okay, so I did a I did a video with Patty Gonya a while ago for work where we were talking about prescribed fire. And when we were filming the video, Patty kept being like, be more gay. Be more gay. And I was like, you don't understand. Like, I'm very gay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And have been my whole life.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

Uh and then what I finally figured out was I needed to be like more like move arm move my arms and like pop my hip and like snap my fingers. Yeah. Yeah. Um feminine, maybe?

SPEAKER_03 10:17

Did that feel like a feminine at home to in your body? No. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

But now I feel more comfortable than ever, like exploring whoever however my body wants to be, which is pretty cool. Wow. Yeah. It's rad. So if I redid that video, I'd probably be sassy as fuck. It'd be fun.

SPEAKER_03 10:36

Um, I have been using they them pronouns for several years now, and a couple of years ago I told one friend, hey, can you try out he him pronouns for me? And they did a couple of times. And every time I'm like, okay, I don't like this because it's not the abstractness that I feel with non-binariness. Yeah. But also I love it when someone mistakes me for a man, which doesn't happen very much, but anytime it does, I'm like, fuck yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:07

And both those things can be true for sure.

SPEAKER_02 11:11

I had a I got um I got he hymned in public by an absolute stranger for the first time a couple weeks ago. And that was a wild experience. I was at I was at the uh Tower Theater and I had to like interact with somebody at the front, and then she yelled across the room to somebody else, like, oh, you need to let him in. I already scanned his ticket. And I was just like, I like came bopping down where I'm at. My partner was like already seated, you know, and she was like, What's going on with you? And I was like, You have no idea what just happened. I also like it when people perceive me as male. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's nice. I think like back to your point, Mara, like living in that abstract or like living in that they them, like if that's what feels good in your body, fuck yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:05

It's so good. I love that. Thank you. Um I've been thinking about gender affirming care. Top surgery, bottom surgery, um, HRT. And my partner and I have been talking about this topic, and he was referring to certain things that he saw as gender affirming, like hair transplants and boob jobs and whatever, like plastic surgery and whatever. And he sees a lot of that stuff as gender affirming, which I'd I would have never thought of it that way. Have you ever thought of it that way? Either of you?

SPEAKER_00 12:56

I've heard it described that way, and I think it's a reasonable I think it's I think it's a good way to expand like to force an expansion of like what that means to things that people that are relatable to more people, right?

SPEAKER_03 13:08

Yeah, like a man who has a receding hairline getting some more hair on his head to feel more manly.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Right, totally.

SPEAKER_03 13:15

I would have never I I totally agree that is gender affirming care.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Yeah, I think it I think it's valuable from uh just like a education and like perspective expanding standpoint to be like, yeah, these things are all in the same bucket, basically.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

Yeah, if you want to ban one, bring them all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Yeah, I think it's interesting to I mean to exp right because it forces you forces you to reflect on what gender is in society and like what's the role of it and why, you know, how do you want to relate to it, right? Because especially if you're like, you know, a straight cis person, like you don't think about it, right? You don't you aren't sort of forced to reflect on what is gender and like how do I think about like obviously you're reacting to it in certain ways because you exist in the world and you choose it out to be and that influences those things.

SPEAKER_03 14:09

And you're perpetuating it.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

Sure, but not consciously typically, right? You're not thinking about like okay.

SPEAKER_03 14:15

You're not like you're getting a boob job, like you're getting bigger boobs to feel more like a woman.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

Maybe, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

You c yeah, you could be. I see both sides for me. I could in part because I I my experience of telling folks like hey, yeah, I'm gonna get top surgery. Um in the past, some some individuals, multiple, have reapplied and been like, well, yeah, I guess if if I had the option, I would get liposuction on my stomach, or like if I had the option, I would get a butt job or whatever. And I'm like, yeah, that's that's well within your right. And if that's gonna make you happy uh and make you feel more embodied, then you you absolutely should do that. And I think the piece you're both getting to is like, but there's there's also a step further where like is that gender affirming or is that like body affirming? I don't know if that matters. Interesting, yeah. But it always didn't land super well with me when that was the response of like, yeah, I don't know about it.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Like you feel like there's like a um I guess it might not be a fair comparison, severity variation, right? Or like in like relevance importance variation, maybe?

SPEAKER_02 15:23

I think it was more for me was like this isn't the perfect way I I can to relate to me and what I'm experiencing. Whereas like when I at the time, not not anymore, but like when I look at my body, something is like very much not right, and that is like sending me into some level of like deep discomfort versus like like and maybe that I'm just being it's hard because that could very much be somebody's lived experience with all those other things too. So I don't know. I struggle. It's it's gray for me.

SPEAKER_00 15:57

Yeah, it's all gray, yeah. Like I feel like the br like a breast augmentation is probably the closest parallel, right? Because I think there are people, I mean, like, yeah, there are people who like that feels like that's depriving them of their or that they don't feel like as, like you said, like as complete of you know a representation of a woman without that. Yeah. You know? But I don't know, it hasn't been my experience.

SPEAKER_03 16:23

But I don't know, and I would never want you to I don't want to push my wonderings and my opinions on you.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

I hope I'm in No, not at all. I think uh ultimately like people should be free to do what they want to do with their bodies. Yeah, but that's it that's the bottom line.

SPEAKER_03 16:39

I agree.

SPEAKER_02 16:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:41

And for us all to just support each other and be like, hey, I'm on your team, no matter what you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 16:47

Yeah. You you want to go get that thing? Great. I'm gonna show up in a meal train for you.

SPEAKER_03 16:51

Yeah, yeah. Agreed. I also was thinking, um And this is like a this is I'm I'm wondering, like um And it's like it's it could be debatable, I guess, but why are people who don't understand gender euphoria or dysphoria like why are they involved in making laws around um gender affirming care?

SPEAKER_02 17:27

For the for the same reason that um predominantly cis men are making laws around birth control.

SPEAKER_03 17:33

Yeah. Right. Like why if you can't if you can't get pregnant, shut up. This has really been on my mind the last couple weeks. That's fair. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:48

Yeah. There's uh yeah, very, very little trans representation in politics, for sure. I don't have a good answer.

SPEAKER_03 17:59

Oh no, no, no. I I yeah, I'm not this isn't like I need your answer. I'm just like, this is what's on my mind lately. Yeah, absolutely.

unknown 18:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

Um I'm curious as you've been transitioning to be more masculine, what's been like uh unexpected experience or like element of that change? Because I mean that's it's hard, it's impossible, it's really hard for me to imagine changing my gender for me, you know? And so it's I'm really interested in like how that has like what have been some surprises or like elements of that that you're like, oh, this is not like an experience that I'd ever had before, and now I'm having something new.

SPEAKER_02 18:36

I think the thing I've noticed the most, at least in the last like literally couple weeks, is how many times I've been approached by uh perceivingly uh cis men to talk about manly things.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

When they like I think we're talking about finchanger both and something like that.

SPEAKER_02 18:57

Yes. Like oh my god. I was at I was literally at the gas station in Le Pine last weekend meeting a friend to pick her up to go fishing. And this guy pulls all the way across the parking lot up next to my truck and was like, that's a beautiful setup. And I was like, Oh, thank you so much. He's like, What are you fishing for? How deep are you trolling? What is your what is your bait? And I was like, My girlfriend would kill me if I used bait. We only fly fish. Uh my friend pulled up and was like, Do you know that guy? And I was like, No, but this happens to me all the time now.

SPEAKER_03 19:35

And then literally a kinship with you, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

Like 40 minutes later, some guy on the boat ramp was like, Where else have you been fishing this weekend?

SPEAKER_03 19:43

Oh, dude, you're part of the club.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

I'm part of the club now. I guess how does that feel? Well, usually then I open my mouth and I start talking and they look really confused because they're like, Your voice is weird. I I don't understand what's happening, what's coming out of your body.

SPEAKER_03 19:55

That sounds um part of it though, kind of surreal.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

It's been a little strange. Yeah, for sure. Uh the other thing is that my pants just don't fit. Oh, yeah. Um, so that's been kind of inconvenient, but apparently now I have thighs. Well that happened in like two months. Getting swole. Getting swole. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:19

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 20:20

And yeah, there's like weird hair I grow in my belly, but nowhere else. Which is cool, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

Keep you warm, I guess. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:27

I mean, the one thing I said when I went on tea and started talking to the prescribing doctor is he was like, is there anything you don't want to have happen? Because that's what they ask you. Yeah. And I was like, I don't want hair on my shoulders. Oh, and he was like, just your shoulders? And he's like, Yeah, everywhere everywhere else is fine, but for some reason I just don't want shoulder hair. And he was like, You're gonna just have to shave that. I like that he asked and was like, yeah, well, sorry. Yeah, and go.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

Oh, that's so funny.

SPEAKER_02 20:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:59

Um, any other thoughts on I know it's like a wide, broad question, and I love your answer, and thank you so much. Is there anything else that comes to mind about your gender journey?

SPEAKER_02 21:13

I think just like provoke uh just a reminder to like create however you can, like create space in our day-to-day lives for people who are gender diverse, are trans right now, because it's a hard time in our country to be a trans human. Like even thinking about uh like the Save Act that was going around recently that would essentially stop all trans people from voting. And when I think like I I would really like to uh legally change my name, for example. Um but I'm also gonna have to change my passport, and uh I can't do that right now. Or this administration will let me. So um, your sex yeah. I can't change my gender marker if it doesn't match my birth certificate. Um and so that the awkward position that puts me in is like probably six months from now when I have a beard, I'll be trying to travel on a passport and with a female gender marker. And then it's just up to the like I just hope I get a good border patrol person that I can explain that to, you know, like uh anyway. Just yeah, it's a it's a hard time to be trans in our country, to be queer, to be anything different, right? And we just we gotta create that space because the world already feels hard enough. Definitely because that's that's what I got.

SPEAKER_03 22:46

Agreed.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:49

Thank you so much for talking about this with us here. Anytime.

SPEAKER_02 22:53

Yeah, for sharing. Yeah. Sorry I told you about my belly hair twice.

SPEAKER_03 22:57

No, I'm so glad that you did. I'm looking forward to the next time I hear about it.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

It'll probably happen. I'll give weekly updates.

SPEAKER_03 23:09

Do you have a closing quote?

SPEAKER_02 23:12

I do. Yeah. Are you ready for it? Okay. Um, it's by a writer named Mary Ann Radmacher. Uh she writes a lot of books about like what it means to be alive, essentially. Um, and she has this quote that I really like. She says, courage does not always roar. Sometimes it's the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, I will try again tomorrow.

SPEAKER_03 23:44

That's wild. That my my old roommate has a mug with that quote on it.

SPEAKER_02 23:48

Really? That's wild. I really like it.

SPEAKER_03 23:50

It's a really good quote.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:53

Sweet. Well, thank you so much, Kyle.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Yeah, thanks so much for sitting down with us and sharing. And thanks for having this shy guy, spicy brain, farm daddy podcast. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 24:03

Burn boss. Burn boss.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

Doesn't get better than that.

SPEAKER_03 24:07

Send this to your friends. Write it on your podcast platform of choice. For thoughts or questions, send us an email. We'll be back next month with another dose of wonder.